God and Time

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

I believe that our concept of TIME is probably different to God's TIME: i.e. REAL TIME!

For example, Einstein reckoned that all TIME in the Universe was governed by the speed of light, but then he wasn't a Christian.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, i agree with you here and yes i realize that most people (myself included) don't read what's been said in a topic already but i am with you here.
I don't think Time is eternal, and most of science thinks that Time is not eternal either.
The person who created this topic thinks that Time is eternal though.
At the end of the day nobody knows, but best guess according to science and logic is that Time is not eternal. Time was created at Creation.

Yes that’s all I was saying ,and I was really never coming against you I tried to be funny originally but forget that in text it doesn’t always translate I do apologize if you felt like I was disparaging your post just inappropriate humor

if you think about what most science says about creation wouldnt time sort of be eternal ? And sort of the force that actually created everything would be time and space ?

It’s just my own odd way of thinking I suppose friend . Because of the theories of how for instance over billions of years of random collisions and explosions of dying stars remnants of the bang that ended up forming the solar system and everything it’s sort of just time and random chaos that gets the glory

But it’s just my own way of thinking lol probably 50.50 on right and wrong so lol take some salt with my opinion

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe that our concept of TIME is probably different to God's TIME: i.e. REAL TIME!

For example, Einstein reckoned that all TIME in the Universe was governed by the speed of light, but then he wasn't a Christian.

Yes this comes also into and from the theory of evolution . And hearkens back to the bangalang theory . By measuring the speed of light , man can then measure how long ago the most distant stars we can see the light from existed

but you have to first accept that the bang is the beginning then by measuring the distance by light they think they know how old the universe is because they concluded it began with a boom and not like genesis speaks it

 

[Magenta]

“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor
crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hebrews 13:14

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Yes this comes also into and from the theory of evolution . And hearkens back to the bangalang theory . By measuring the speed of light , man can then measure how long ago the most distant stars we can see the light from existed

but you have to first accept that the bang is the beginning then by measuring the distance by light they think they know how old the universe is because they concluded it began with a boom and not like genesis speaks it

I totally agree with you!

 

[Eli1]

Yes that’s all I was saying ,and I was really never coming against you I tried to be funny originally but forget that in text it doesn’t always translate I do apologize if you felt like I was disparaging your post just inappropriate humor

if you think about what most science says about creation wouldnt time sort of be eternal ? And sort of the force that actually created everything would be time and space ?

It’s just my own odd way of thinking I suppose friend . Because of the theories of how for instance over billions of years of random collisions and explosions of dying stars remnants of the bang that ended up forming the solar system and everything it’s sort of just time and random chaos that gets the glory

But it’s just my own way of thinking lol probably 50.50 on right and wrong so lol take some salt with my opinion

It's all right, i honestly thought you were saying something else and yes in text things can get confusing but since I've been repeating the same thing, it seems to me that most people don't read it and don't realize that Time itself is a mystery.

Most of science doesn't think that Time was eternal our "outside" of our Creation and its because Time+Space is a bundle, like you said, and according to the theory of relativity. So, these two things were created at the beginning with all of us inside.
The Bible speaks of "The Begining" and our telescopes can actually see the begining at around 14 billion years ago.
So, Time and Space were created at the beginning, logic dictates.
Now, i also realize that when i say 14 billion years old, then it becomes a Young Earth vs Old Earth topic, so let's not go there.
Let's just talk about this topic of Time for now.

God bless.

 

[Burn1986]

An interesting philosophical concept to consider is the notion of God’s relationship to time. Many Christian are quick to claim that God is not subject to time. This view is known as atemporalism. At first glance, this view seems sound as it affirms God’s immutability, highlights God’s omniscience and seeks to exalt God as one who sits over the constraints of time.

However, there are some serious concerns with this view. First, if this view is correct, God exists in a constant state of stasis. Everything would be a frozen present to God. Thus, creation, redemption and recreation would all be simultaneous events for God. In fact, it would call into question the very concept of God creating the world ex nihilo. For, how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. Second, the biblical notion that God became flesh would also be called into question as, there would never be a moment for God when God was not Jesus of Nazareth. Finally, this notion would cause us to reconsider God’s interactions with humanity we see in Scripture that is replete with warnings, answered prayers, forgiveness, anger, love and other acts which indicate God is responding and interacting with humanity based on human actions in time. This view is also popular among Calvinists as they use this philosophical notion as justification for God‘s predetermination of the elect and damned based on his sovereign declaration rather than human response. It would only make sense that if everything is a frozen constant to God, then the moment of creation would also be the moment of salvation. God knowing everything prior to creation would have created the world in such a way as to have predetermined all outcomes.

A second view on God‘s relationship with time is temporalism. This view suggests that God exists in time. In the same way humans are subject to time, so is God. Yet for God, his past is infinite as well as his future. In some ways, this fits many of the Biblical descriptions of God’s interaction with time as he is referred to as one who is “from everlasting to everlasting,” “the first and the last,“ and “before all time and now and forever“ (Jude 25). This is not to say that God is subject to time, as if he is inferior to time itself. Rather, that time is part of God’s essence or being. Theologians from this view hold a range of different theological positions from Reformed theologians, Arminians and openness theologians.

A third view would argue that God is metatemporal. Similar to the temporal view, this view claims that God does exist in time. However, God does stand outside the human timeline. This view holds that there is created time and uncreated time. God stands outside the created timeline of the universe he made, but still exists in his own time which is part of his very essence. Thus, God does interact with humanity based on the flow of time and God, himself, along with his thoughts and actions do have a past, present and future. So the encounters with humanity along time are not merely anthropomorphic as atemporalists would argue, but are genuine responses to past and present actions.

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.

Right. So the question is how can we be “…seated with Christ in Heavenly places…” when we are down here on Earth. But it also says “…vision is for an appointed time…” There’s a mystery to it.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

I totally agree with you!

And also, isn't the theory of Evolution one of the most ridiculous things that's ever come out!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hebrews 13:14

Oooooo that’s a good one

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,

wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:10-15‬ ‭

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-3‬ ‭

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[posthuman]

How can we be with Him if there is no time to BE in; and no space within which to be WITH Him?

How is He with us now?

 

[posthuman]

Did someone deny that the spiritual realm exists? I think some of us are denying that the spiritual realm needs to be timeless and spaceless, and scripture, in fact, describes it as experiencing sequential events (i.e. as temporal) and having length, breadth, height and depth (i.e. as spatial).

Where is heaven?

 

[Foghorn]

An interesting philosophical concept to consider is the notion of God’s relationship to time. Many Christian are quick to claim that God is not subject to time. This view is known as atemporalism. At first glance, this view seems sound as it affirms God’s immutability, highlights God’s omniscience and seeks to exalt God as one who sits over the constraints of time.

However, there are some serious concerns with this view. First, if this view is correct, God exists in a constant state of stasis. Everything would be a frozen present to God. Thus, creation, redemption and recreation would all be simultaneous events for God. In fact, it would call into question the very concept of God creating the world ex nihilo. For, how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. Second, the biblical notion that God became flesh would also be called into question as, there would never be a moment for God when God was not Jesus of Nazareth. Finally, this notion would cause us to reconsider God’s interactions with humanity we see in Scripture that is replete with warnings, answered prayers, forgiveness, anger, love and other acts which indicate God is responding and interacting with humanity based on human actions in time. This view is also popular among Calvinists as they use this philosophical notion as justification for God‘s predetermination of the elect and damned based on his sovereign declaration rather than human response. It would only make sense that if everything is a frozen constant to God, then the moment of creation would also be the moment of salvation. God knowing everything prior to creation would have created the world in such a way as to have predetermined all outcomes.

A second view on God‘s relationship with time is temporalism. This view suggests that God exists in time. In the same way humans are subject to time, so is God. Yet for God, his past is infinite as well as his future. In some ways, this fits many of the Biblical descriptions of God’s interaction with time as he is referred to as one who is “from everlasting to everlasting,” “the first and the last,“ and “before all time and now and forever“ (Jude 25). This is not to say that God is subject to time, as if he is inferior to time itself. Rather, that time is part of God’s essence or being. Theologians from this view hold a range of different theological positions from Reformed theologians, Arminians and openness theologians.

A third view would argue that God is metatemporal. Similar to the temporal view, this view claims that God does exist in time. However, God does stand outside the human timeline. This view holds that there is created time and uncreated time. God stands outside the created timeline of the universe he made, but still exists in his own time which is part of his very essence. Thus, God does interact with humanity based on the flow of time and God, himself, along with his thoughts and actions do have a past, present and future. So the encounters with humanity along time are not merely anthropomorphic as atemporalists would argue, but are genuine responses to past and present actions.

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.

When God created time it had a beginning and will have an end. It runs on a straight line, going forward. According to the scriptures, God can and does operate in the created time frame and outside of it. Multi dimensional?
For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4.

When God created the heavens, the earth, and time, He was operating in a dimension beyond our capabilities to detect.
If God can operate in different dimensions, time would have no effect on Him, nor would it be a frozen constant. God must be a Being who is not limited to a single dimension of time.

At any instance of time in our world is infinite time to God. This is why He can hear millions and millions of prayers at one time.
According to scripture, God is not a being who is limited to a single dimension of time but perhaps multiple, it's obvious He operates in a dimension(s) well beyond our capability to detect or comprehend. I believe God can choose to operate along multiple timelines.


“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’? Job 38.

 

[Foghorn]

I don't know if you're reading someone else's points here because it seems to me that you're new at this but it's a fun subject nonetheless.

The "Challanges" that you posted are ideas that you have in your mind so they're your challenges not my challenges.
Because again you're missing the point of the fish-bowl where we will have concepts and language barriers when trying to describe anything outside of our own experience in this universe.

I don't know if you've studied this enough to consider the following:

* What we perceive as "Time" may not be time at all. We are biological beings and the whole universe is in a constant state of change. This change may be perceived as time for us for many practical reasons including survival.
* If time does truly exist and flows like a river, you still have no idea what kind of physics you're dealing with outside of this universe to even call a concept like Time and label it "Time" as we experience it. So you need new language, concepts and physics.

So if we can't understand what Time is, how can you even ask a question about a frozen Creator interacting with a moving object like us? Especially since the Creator created what we perceive as time.
Have you really looked into the concept of time at all? Because i have seen several documentaries by very bright physicist and no one has any idea what Time is.

 

[maxwel]

Nice People & Science Fiction:

A lot of very sweet people grow up watching science fiction, and then...
they find themselves with a subconscious expectation that the Bible account for the science fiction.

A hundred years ago, before the advent of science fiction movies, about 90% of the views expressed in this thread would have been nonexistent.

Something to think about.




God Bless.
Have a great week everyone.

.

 

[PaulThomson]

Where is heaven?

Which heaven. there are three mentioned in the Bible. 1. The place in which birds fly, distinct from land and water, i.e air; 2. the place in which the stars are positioned, distinct from land, waters and air, celestial space within time-space continua; and 3. the place where God's throne is established, the space outside of the time-space continua, but also immanenet within all space time continua and within which all time-space continua and their contents rest. God's throne is in the third heaven

 

[PaulThomson]

When God created time...

That's an assumption not in the Bible.

... it had a beginning and will have an end.

The world had a beginning and will have an end. Time had a beginning is not in the Bible.

it [time] runs on a straight line, going forward.

It need not be a straight line. It could be multiple branches going forward: more like a tree that a straight line.

According to the scriptures, God can and does operate in the created time frame and outside of it. Multi dimensional?
For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4.

Agreed. But the Bible describes God as experiencing time in His existence. It does not say "ALL of time is AN INSTANT to God." It quite reasonably points out that God, whose existence is of vastly greater duration that ours, experiences 1000 years as if it is but one day. That's like saying that for a mayfly that lives for one day, fifteen minutes is a year. Or seven dog years are one of our years. It's a simile to convey the relative duration of some other beings duration compared to ours. If God did not experience any passage of time, this simile would be meaningless. the appropriate description would be that everlasting to everlasting is but one moment to God.

When God created the heavens, the earth, and time, He was operating in a dimension beyond our capabilities to detect.

You are assuming the creation of time again. Can we not detect the vacuum between dust particles in space? Can we not detect/postulate distinct space-time continua existing contemporaneously and some kind of emptiness or medium between them? Have theoretical physicists not concluded there need to be ten dimensions to account for detected phenomena.
If God can operate in different dimensions, time would have no effect on Him, nor would it be a frozen constant. God must be a Being who is not limited to a single dimension of time.

At any instance of time in our world is infinite time to God. This is why He can hear millions and millions of prayers at one time.

Isn't the point displaying God's greatness that He is able to hear and see all present reality in that present instant. Describing that as God slowing things down so that he is watching one second spread over infinite time in order to keep track, kind of diminishes the impressiveness of the feat, imo.

According to scripture, God is not a being who is limited to a single dimension of time but perhaps multiple,

There is no "scripture" that your idea is "according to."

it's obvious He operates in a dimension(s) well beyond our capability to detect or comprehend. I believe God can choose to operate along multiple timelines.


“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’? Job 38.

I can't make out what any of that last comment actually means.

 

[PaulThomson]

You are assuming the creation of time again. Can we not detect the vacuum between dust particles in space? Can we not detect/postulate distinct space-time continua existing contemporaneously and some kind of emptiness or medium between them? Have theoretical physicists not concluded there need to be ten dimensions to account for detected phenomena.
If God can operate in different dimensions, time would have no effect on Him, nor would it be a frozen constant. God must be a Being who is not limited to a single dimension of time.

The text in red was accidentally included in my comment. It is not my comment, but part of Cameron's comments. Please don't attribute it to me.

There is no reason to assume that "If God can operate in different dimensions, time would have no effect on Him." The rest of Foghorn's comment here is unfathomable to me.

 

[PaulThomson]

It's not very fun when we are repeating the same things over and over.
Nobody knows what Time is at the fundamental level of reality.
The general consensus is that Time+Space was created at the beginning, so we can't really say that Time existed before and we will never have any evidence for that.
Also, despite our best understanding of physics now, we can't say for sure if Time is real or if we've made it up in our minds.

What is time? | Live Science

View attachment 263754

Carroll is a vocal atheist who has debated with Christian apologists such as Dinesh D'Souza and William Lane Craig.
Sean M. Carroll - Wikipedia

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sean_M._Carroll

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Sean M. Carroll has no fear of God. But you are leaning on his wisdom?

 

[Eli1]

Carroll is a vocal atheist who has debated with Christian apologists such as Dinesh D'Souza and William Lane Craig.
Sean M. Carroll - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sean_M._Carroll

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Sean M. Carroll has no fear of God. But you are leaning on his wisdom?

Paul, let’s just have some coffee instead.

 

[PaulThomson]

Paul, let’s just have some coffee instead.

If you are insisting on relying on the insights of a vocal atheist to inform your biblical exegesis, that may be the best we can hope for in terms of interacting on the topic of God and time.