getting dates about a young earth

[Dan_473]

I don't understand why we are having this discussion. I have not read all 76 pages, but it should be obvious that it is an OLD EARTH. Earth is 4.56 billion years old, the same rough estimate of the sun and the moon. It is a complete misunderstanding or ignorance of the science to suggest it's 6000 years old or so. That's clearly falsified by quite a few independent branches of science...even branches of sciences that has nothing to do with setting out to determine age. It's still come to the same conclusions independently. I'm not sure what we are talking about here, folks. ...Those that think otherwise, I'm sorry to put them in line with conspiracy theorists and they should go to that part of the forum. Everything seems to suggest an Old Earth, and I'm not trying to fight with anyone...I'm actually genuinely baffled that we'd take this seriously...I thought it was obvious.

would you put yourself in the "genesis stories are basically myths... intended to give us spiritual truths only" camp, then?

 

[Dan_473]

He cant, if the genealogies are telescoped Because you will get the age of the parent only, but without the knowledge what gap is between him and the one called his "son".

What do you think that the date of flood is? When you simply sum all the Bible dates, you will get dates that are younger than the oldest civilizations (Egypt, China). If you believe the flood was global, there is must be some error in numbers

ok... "Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah".

sure, maybe it's telescoped, maybe Arp is the great-grandfather of Shelah... how old is Arp when Shelah is born?

"Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah ... Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber"

regardless of how many generations, how old is Arp when Eber is born?



I'll be happy to talk about dating ancient civilizations after we work out how to deal with the "X was n years old when he begat Y" issue.

 

[Dan_473]

Genesis 2 is a difficult reading. Bible scholars agree, that the style of author, vocabulary and the genre is so different from the Genesis 1, that it is probably from different era and author.

Genesis 1 seems to be more "technical" description of events, but then Genesis 2 comes in with garden, breathing to the face of human made of clay, taking his rib, making woman from it, talking serpent, trees of life, trees of good and evil, naming all animals, nakedness... if something is to be allegory, this is the candidate number one.

But beware - allegory does not mean "false". Allegory just use some simple pictures to describe deeper and more complex things.

certainly one can read it as allegory... I would place that under the broad umbrella of "myth"...

and, as you say, it doesn't mean "false".

one can read all of genesis as allegory... actually, the entire bible...

that's what most liberal christians do... I think a person can certainly be a christian and have that view.

it's been great so far talking with you... as I said, your english is way better than my czech...

if you want to use the "it's allegory" approach, then we don't need to nail down how old Arpachshad is when Shelah is born.

 

[Dan_473]

If you believe that all animals were created in six days, you must accept that all carnivores were created from the beginning, from sharks, spiders, snakes, bacterias to velociraptors, lions or wolfs.

Or you must accept that God made almost all the earth recreated after the fall... or that evolution works so quickly, that few hundreds years are enough to get carnivorous body and chemistry.

I don't know how God did it. the issue I'm looking at is, "what does the text say?"

using a non-allegorical reading, I'd say the text says all the animals ate plants.

compare to isaiah 11 "The lion will eat straw like the ox."

I think the idea is that someday, things will be like they were, "They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain".

 

[Dan_473]

Why? Earth can be billions of years old but humanity can be only 100 000 years old.
It does not affect the age of Universe, if you believe in young humanity, because universe together with the planet was created in the verse Gen 1:1, before the six days and so before the creation of Adam.

it affect's one's calculation of the age of the universe, because it affects whether one reads genesis as allegory or not, which then affects how one uses data from mainstream science.

I don't follow the second paragraph, but I'm interested in seeing if you just want to read genesis as allegory.

 

[trofimus]

it affect's one's calculation of the age of the universe, because it affects whether one reads genesis as allegory or not, which then affects how one uses data from mainstream science.

I don't follow the second paragraph, but I'm interested in seeing if you just want to read genesis as allegory.

But how can you calculate the age of the universe from Bible? You can only calculate the age of humanity (and not accurately, since genealogies are telescoped).

Second paragraph:
Gen 1:1 - creation of heavens and earth (= universe)
Gen 1:2 - land was unseen and unfurnished, under the water and the spirit of God preparing planet for further development.

Thats the starting point for the day 1.

So the age of universe cannot be taken from the six days nor from the age of humanity. All this happned AFTER the universe and planet was created.

 

[trofimus]

ok... "Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah".

sure, maybe it's telescoped, maybe Arp is the great-grandfather of Shelah... how old is Arp when Shelah is born?

"Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah ... Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber"

regardless of how many generations, how old is Arp when Eber is born?

We can not know, we can not even know if he was still alive, because there can be gap many generations long.

 

[Dan_473]

But how can you calculate the age of the universe from Bible? You can only calculate the age of humanity (and not accurately, since genealogies are telescoped).

Second paragraph:
Gen 1:1 - creation of heavens and earth (= universe)
Gen 1:2 - land was unseen and unfurnished, under the water and the spirit of God preparing planet for further development.

Thats the starting point for the day 1.

So the age of universe cannot be taken from the six days nor from the age of humanity. All this happned AFTER the universe and planet was created.

(thanks for clarifying)

yes, the universe being created before day 1 is a possibility.

but before we spend time talking about that, how about maybe something that might take less time... like the age of plants.

would you say that plants can be dated to the age of adam, plus a few 24-hour days?

 

[Dan_473]

We can not know, we can not even know if he was still alive, because there can be gap many generations long.

yes, there can be gaps in ancient genealogies.

at the same time, according to this "Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah", how old is Arp when Shelah is born? how do you read it?

 

[Tintin]

ok... "Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah".

sure, maybe it's telescoped, maybe Arp is the great-grandfather of Shelah... how old is Arp when Shelah is born?

"Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah ... Shelah lived thirty years, and became the father of Eber"

regardless of how many generations, how old is Arp when Eber is born?



I'll be happy to talk about dating ancient civilizations after we work out how to deal with the "X was n years old when he begat Y" issue.

Genesis 5 is a chrono-genealogy (there are no gaps).
Jesus family tree is a genealogy (they may have some gaps).

 

[Tintin]

But how can you calculate the age of the universe from Bible? You can only calculate the age of humanity (and not accurately, since genealogies are telescoped).

Second paragraph:
Gen 1:1 - creation of heavens and earth (= universe)
Gen 1:2 - land was unseen and unfurnished, under the water and the spirit of God preparing planet for further development.

Thats the starting point for the day 1.

So the age of universe cannot be taken from the six days nor from the age of humanity. All this happened AFTER the universe and planet was created.

Yes, it can. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. God had to create Time first. After all, it says 'In the beginning'. From then on, we have Creation Week - six days of creation and one day of rest. Nothing but God existed before God created in Creation Week, not even Time. Because God is the Creator of everything.

 

[RobbyEarl]

There is only one gap and it between God created the Heavens and the Earth and the first day

 

[Tintin]

There is only one gap and it between God created the Heavens and the Earth and the first day

Nope. The Gap Theory is an old earth compromise.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Nope. The Gap Theory is an old earth compromise.

Then how did Earth become void and full of Darkness?

 

[trofimus]

(thanks for clarifying)

yes, the universe being created before day 1 is a possibility.

but before we spend time talking about that, how about maybe something that might take less time... like the age of plants.

would you say that plants can be dated to the age of adam, plus a few 24-hour days?

No, "days" in Genesis are not 24 hours days, but long-time periods.

 

[trofimus]

yes, there can be gaps in ancient genealogies.

at the same time, according to this "Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah", how old is Arp when Shelah is born? how do you read it?

How old was Abraham or David when Christ was born? Christ was the son of Abraham and the son of David.
How old was Arpachshad when Shelah was really born (and not his x-grand parent)? We dont know. Because we dont know if Shelah was his direct son or not.

 

[trofimus]

Yes, it can. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. God had to create Time first. After all, it says 'In the beginning'. From then on, we have Creation Week - six days of creation and one day of rest. Nothing but God existed before God created in Creation Week, not even Time. Because God is the Creator of everything.

Space-time is a property of the universe. Time, space and matter were all created in Big Bang. You can look up some documentaries about that.

 

[trofimus]

Then how did Earth become void and full of Darkness?

Gap theory wanted to put science and bible together, but is neither scientific nor biblical.

Earth did not BECOME void, but "land WAS unseen", covered by waters. Land had to appear from waters first, in creation days.

And darkness is an initial condition without light, when the atmosphere is not translucent.

 

[Dan_473]

Genesis 5 is a chrono-genealogy (there are no gaps).
Jesus family tree is a genealogy (they may have some gaps).

that's what I'm thinking, too...
when we read, "Arpachshad lived thirty-five years, and became the father of Shelah", there's two possible meanings...

one is that Arp is 35 when Shelah is born.

the other is that there's some mystical meaning to 35... but I haven't heard anyone give an "interpretation" to that...


so I go with Arp is 35 when Shelah is born.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, it can. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. God had to create Time first. After all, it says 'In the beginning'. From then on, we have Creation Week - six days of creation and one day of rest. Nothing but God existed before God created in Creation Week, not even Time. Because God is the Creator of everything.

I'll go with that... first I questioned whether Time was a "thing"... but I realized that I believe God created Morality and Justice...

so it follows that God created Time as well.