getting dates about a young earth

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But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

That is the context... creation is specifically mentioned.

Also:
"... everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

There is nothing new...

That's better but this is the full context of the verse.

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, [SUP]3 [/SUP]knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:1-8

This verse sums it up well.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

Hold fast. Don't give up hope. Don't believe the naysayers. Jesus hasn't forgot His people. He's coming back again. That's the message. From the beginning to the end of time, God's promises hold true, even when all the evidence points to the world going to hell in a handbasket. Keep running the race.
 
He could have, but perhaps He waited so we could see His awesomeness and ponder it. For us it it may seem a waste of time, but God doesn't experience time like us, so to Him it's no time at all.

true, But imagine if he did the exact same thing in seven days.. Now that is a feet worthy of praise.. especially when you look at how complex even the smallest form of life can be..
 
Well, one could say that YEC is dangerous because it teaches against most evidences of an old earth and even older universe. Thus, when confronted with a reason for your faith and belief of God the creator the only answer is without satisfactory reason to the agnostic or atheist, "because the bible says so" (in which I don't think the bible directly does say so). It's a weak argument.

Jesus rose a man from the dead, Caused the lame to walk. the blind to see, Walked on the water, Caused a storm and the seas to settle down and be calm. Turned water to wine, Made lepers whole again. And he himself rose from the dead. In the OT, He caused the earth to stop moving (time to stand still) parted a sea (red) and I am just touching the surface of all God has done.

Is it any more against science and logic to believe God did all these things then to believe God created the earth and heavens in 7 days?

All these things take faith to believe, and to be honest,, The answer you gave (the bible says so) is about the only proof we have of those also..

so if someone is going to reject God because of YEC vs OEC they will never believe Jesus did all those miracles either..
 
People, it's not possible to read the Creation Week in Genesis 1 and 2 as being long ages without bringing in outside information. If you use Scripture to interpret Scripture (as God's Word tells us to do) the Creation Week reads as 6 ordinary days of work and one regular day of rest. If you want to believe otherwise, okay. But that's what Moses wrote via Holy Spirit. And Hebrew poetry is very recognisable. Early Genesis has none of its features (for countless examples of Hebrew poetry see the Psalms).

I agree with the thrust of what you're saying.

the part about "If you use Scripture to interpret Scripture (as God's Word tells us to do)..."
I think I agree, but I'm not sure where the bible tells us to do that... details plzzzz?
 
If you consider known physics, when spinning a top, the energy applied to it is understandably dissipated. The top slows to a stop. I never saw or heard of one continuing to spin.

Now, though, it should be understood that all creation is like letters on a scroll. The stars are on it, and the scroll, a "fabric", was stretched out in every direction by God, who made the fabric with the stars on it. It wouldn't matter how long ago a particular star was born, concerning it's position now compared to it's beginning position. What matters is all of them were stretched out into space at once, perhaps in a nanosecond of time, and supposedly the moment every object of his fabric was created. Along with those objects, their emitted light was stretched too. So, the light emitted from each star left a trail on the fabric through "time".

To visualize that, take a sheet of cloth, put some ink dots on it, then measure the distance between each. Then wet and stretch it with all your might. Next, measure the distance between spots. You will find each is farther apart. If you could stand on the surface in the middle of that sheet witnessing it all, you would have seen each star giving light recede, but since you too are spreading outward at the same speed as some of those dots, "spreading" outward like all of them, the light coming to you will be slower and of a longer light wave, or "bluer", toward the ultraviolet light bands.

I don't understand if you're saying God did literally stretch out the heavens or if that's figurative.

I didn't understand the top or the sheet analogy... starting with the top, I think it slows because of friction with the surface it's on, and drag from the air.
is that what you're thinking, too?
 
Just for the record, I thought I had explained this, I don't believe life evolved over time, I believe life was created instantly; but I don't have a problem with the universe, stars, planets, and suns etc. evolving and being fine tuned by God to support life for our existence.

I've never heard this combination before... stars, sun over time, and life instant.

when do you see life as being created?
 
They are literal epochs of time, yes.

Further, our sun was not created on 'day 4'.

right, if the sun is created "in the beginning", then I think more weight for the days being literal.

why do you say epochs of time?
 
No.

Gen 1.1 condenses billions of years into one statement....then it provides the sequence that the earth was made habitable.....from simple to more and more complex life forms.

I could see that the first verse condenses some period of time into one statement.

is there something that indicates that the period of time is billions of years? not millions?
 
You could be right, just remember the old Hebrew language consists of roughly 9100 words, while our language consists of more then a million. Of course I'm relying on other's works for these numbers but the point remains that translating can be tricky . In 1 kings 22 the spirit offered to go and tell the lie, all God did was approve of it, it wasn't God's idea (it seems). We don't know much about who this spirit was or is, or who it pledged it's allegiance too. It could have been an evil spirit willing to deceive, since that's what they love to do and God allowed it just as God allows people to sin (and God often uses sin to bring about a particular outcome -repentance or judgment). We know from Revelations that God uses Satan and demons to bring judgment on Jerusalem.

I'm not the only one with possibility or theory on this;

John Wesley, "He said - I will inspire a lie into the minds and mouths of his prophets. Thou shalt - I will give them up into thy hands, and leave them to their own ignorance and wickedness. Go - This is not a command, but only a permission."

John Gill, "and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets; put them on encouraging Ahab to go up, and promising him success, as he had in former battles with the king of Syria, and which might both encourage them to give forth such a prediction, and him to believe it to be true; this proposal was quite agreeable to the character of the devil, as the father of lies:"

Poor man's commentary (Robert Hawker), "That Micaiah had been favoured with a divine vision, upon this occasion, is evident: for his prediction, and the event so exactly corresponding, plainly proved it. With respect to the lying spirit here spoken of, as influencing the prophets, to the destruction of Ahab: as this is an interesting part, and perhaps is not so generally understood; the pious Reader will not be displeased if I detain him with a few observations upon that subject. That there is at the head of our spirital eneumies, a leader, called Satan, who had a principal hand in the ruin of our nature at the fall; and who from that time, hath ruled, more or less, in the minds of the children of disobedience, is a doctrine, I take for granted, no wise person will venture to question, or deny. That the Son of God came to destroy his kingdom, is also an undoubted, and thoroughly allowed truth. That therefore, in this instance he had permission, by the mouths of the false prophets, to deceive Ahab; and that in numberless other instances, his power hath been, and still is, exerted (only limited as the wisdom of Jesus for blessed purposes allows) to influence the corrupt passions of men: scripture so decidedly shows, that it must argue great folly, as well as great wickedness, to dispute it. That the prophet Micaiah, therefore, should be taught this by the ministry of a vision, seems agreeable to the whole analogy of the divine word. And with respect both to the permission and success of his deception, when we consider what Job saith, and Paul confirms, the whole is most fully and satisfactorily explained. The former tells us, from inspired authority, that both the deceiver and deceived are his. And the latter, that in those that perish with the deceivableness of unrighteousness in the working of Satan, it is for this cause, God hath sent them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. See Job_12:16; 2Th_2:9-11. If the Reader would see more on this subject, I refer him to Job_2:1. Of Satan’s power in putting into the heart, as in the case of Judas; Joh_13:2: Of filling the heart, as in Ananias; Act_5:3: Of making the whole man full of subtilty, as in Elymas; Act_13:9-10: And of reigning and ruling in the children of disobedience at his will; see Eph_2:2; 2Ti_1:18.

well, if God approved of the decieving spirit's actions, to me that says that God isn't always against deception (though I like the word 'veiling' better) .

Micaiah says God put the spirit there.
how would the hebrew of that time handle

God actively put the spirit there
vs
the spirit put itself there, God didn't stop it?
 
Well, one could say that YEC is dangerous because it teaches against most evidences of an old earth and even older universe. Thus, when confronted with a reason for your faith and belief of God the creator the only answer is without satisfactory reason to the agnostic or atheist, "because the bible says so" (in which I don't think the bible directly does say so). It's a weak argument.

maybe consider what you're saying for a moment?
" 'because the bible says so' [...] is a weak argument."

most things the bible says (though I'll grant, not all) are based on declarations.

for example, why think that Judah is carried off to babylon because of sin?
I heard a secular historian say it was because of babylon was simply too strong, then the israelite prophets had to find a reason why God didn't help them.



myself, I don't want to base my faith on reasons that are satisfactory to agnostics/atheists... actually, if someone chooses to be an agnostic/atheist, there probably are no satisfactory reasons for them, imo.
 

true, But imagine if he did the exact same thing in seven days.. Now that is a feet worthy of praise.. especially when you look at how complex even the smallest form of life can be..
LOL, we could go one forever on this, God creating in 6 days is not any a greater feat then doing it over time, we'd all expect and assume God can do anything except the things contrary to His nature. Since God is God, I'd expect Him to do it in one second or less, but doesn't reveal everything to us and often works in mysterious ways.
 
maybe consider what you're saying for a moment?
" 'because the bible says so' [...] is a weak argument."

most things the bible says (though I'll grant, not all) are based on declarations.

for example, why think that Judah is carried off to babylon because of sin?
I heard a secular historian say it was because of babylon was simply too strong, then the israelite prophets had to find a reason why God didn't help them.



myself, I don't want to base my faith on reasons that are satisfactory to agnostics/atheists... actually, if someone chooses to be an agnostic/atheist, there probably are no satisfactory reasons for them, imo.
Because Christians used "because the bible says so" in the age of human enlightenment drove more of the same and lead to Christian Liberalism, which lead many Christians to an over pendulum swing called Christian Fundamentalism.

Doesn't Peter state that we should give a reason for our faith (1 Peter 3:15), reason can be the beginning for a spiritual experience. I'm sure I could find many Christians who's testimony involve reason. Are you against Christian apologetics?

I believe in giving my kids and others reasons to believe, it only makes the foundation stronger.

Consider Proverbs 15:28,
28 The heart of the righteous studies how to answer,
But the mouth of the wicked pours forth evil.



 
well, if God approved of the decieving spirit's actions, to me that says that God isn't always against deception (though I like the word 'veiling' better) .

Micaiah says God put the spirit there.
how would the hebrew of that time handle

God actively put the spirit there
vs
the spirit put itself there, God didn't stop it?
God didn't stop sin either, does that make Him responsible for it or approve of it?
 
I agree with the thrust of what you're saying.

the part about "If you use Scripture to interpret Scripture (as God's Word tells us to do)..."
I think I agree, but I'm not sure where the bible tells us to do that... details plzzzz?

Sure thing, brother.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17

Here are a few examples:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [SUP]26 [/SUP]Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Luke 24:25-27

[SUP]44 [/SUP]He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” [SUP]45 [/SUP]Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Luke 24:44-45

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual

1st Corinthians 2:13



 
Sure thing, brother.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [SUP]17 [/SUP]that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
Here are a few examples:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [SUP]26 [/SUP]Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself
What Scriptures did Paul have at the time when he wrote 2nd Timothy?
 
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What Scriptures did Paul have at the time when he wrote 2nd Timothy?

Most of the books that make up the Bible. The last few books of the New Testament would've been the only ones not written (or still in progress) back in 67AD.
 
Jesus rose a man from the dead, Caused the lame to walk. the blind to see, Walked on the water, Caused a storm and the seas to settle down and be calm. Turned water to wine, Made lepers whole again. And he himself rose from the dead. In the OT, He caused the earth to stop moving (time to stand still) parted a sea (red) and I am just touching the surface of all God has done.

Is it any more against science and logic to believe God did all these things then to believe God created the earth and heavens in 7 days?

All these things take faith to believe, and to be honest,, The answer you gave (the bible says so) is about the only proof we have of those also..

so if someone is going to reject God because of YEC vs OEC they will never believe Jesus did all those miracles either..
Paul did not say in Romans 1 that we could know God's attributes by the miracles Jesus had done, but that we could know God's attributes by the things He had made. When we observe creation it has the appearance of age, lots of evidence points to an old earth and an older universe. By stating to an unbeliever that they must deny what they see in order to know God goes against what Paul said in Romans 1 and may hinder them from going further. Right off the bat they may see God or more likely Christians as ignorant dogmatists.

You are comparing apples with oranges here.