getting dates about a young earth

[PilgrimPassingThru]

this would be figurative light, then? not literal light from the sun?

2 Cr 4:6 which is quoting Gen 1:3 (in respects to the light that was before the sun and moon did shine) seems to reflect the same light which would light the city Rev 21:23 which sets aside the need (even there) for the same two (moon or sun) to shine in it also.

 

[Dan_473]

Dan 473.....GIVE it up...what we speculate and deduct while living on this earth concerning what days and nights are, especially back in Creation...Will be answered when we are clothed in a heavenly body, with JESUS to have near us in eternity. We will find all answers to all questions THEN...and only THEN......to surmise, to wonder and try to persuade others in our direction, amounts to NOTHING here in the present. We will be leaving this earth...this present earth, although completely changed by a FLOOD, will next be destroyed by FIRE...a NEW Heaven & a New Earth awaits our future.....as the New Jerusalem, comes down. Tme actually means NOTHING to GOD anyway...and we are filled with GOD...a different perspective takes place. Our TIME here on earth is limited, and we have much preparation for Jesus' returning. I think that is why I fuss so much about wasted forums and posts here, because so many of them have NO great spiritual importance. Certain threads and topics only reflect shallow mindedness....Who cares to 'SPEAK your MIND", or have another Heavenly Recipe", or Who is winning the Presidential Race, and such. I do enjoy the Scriptural topics, and witnessing and testimonies given because they encourage and can bring people closer to CHRIST. Silly me!

I totally hear what you're saying, and spiritual edification is always the goal!

one thing I've brought up several times is that God may have created or made things "already going"... like the sun made already producing light.

this strikes some as deceptive, that God wouldn't do that... so the thread is in some ways about the character of God.

(I don't actually see it as God being deceptive, rather that God veils things sometimes in some cases.)

 

[posthuman]

What Hebrew creation verbs do you use to arrive at that conclusion?

1:14-19 ?

esp. in 16:

God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
​

this is on the 4th day. i understand the Hebrew for "made" is not the one used when He "created the heavens and the earth" in verse 1 -- but it's the same used for "made" or "created" throughout, except in the case of initial creation of the universe, and specifically of man, right?

so if Sol isn't created on the 4th day -- how do i understand day 4? just re-arranging, nothing new made? and on the first day, all the stars, and the moon, and all planets fall under the category of "let there be light" ?

 

[Dan_473]

2 Cr 4:6 which is quoting Gen 1:3 (in respects to the light that was before the sun and moon did shine) seems to reflect the same light which would light the city Rev 21:23 which sets aside the need (even there) for the same two (moon or sun) to shine in it also.

yes, I think I see what you're saying, and agree.


from the beginning of Proverbs 25, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter"

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: this verses accomodates the said part about what is the light that represents the day and the night
in the beggining . ...
:read:
Exodus: 13. 21. And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
22. He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
~:» the two great lights . ... the great light and
the lesser light that are written in the scriptures can be a good description to this pillars . ...
:read:
Genesis: 1. 16. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,


:8) imagine if we only think that this present earth is the first creation in the beggining then everything in truth shall be denied for we can see how a galaxy is form before it could have stars (sun) and planets and moons


:happy: for there so many translations that could define the lights and the stars and earth and waters from the written holy scriptures . ...
so let the scriptures speak for itself


:ty:


godbless us all always

 

[valiant]

1:14-19 ?

esp. in 16:

God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
​

this is on the 4th day. i understand the Hebrew for "made" is not the one used when He "created the heavens and the earth" in verse 1 -- but it's the same used for "made" or "created" throughout, except in the case of initial creation of the universe, and specifically of man, right?

so if Sol isn't created on the 4th day -- how do i understand day 4? just re-arranging, nothing new made? and on the first day, all the stars, and the moon, and all planets fall under the category of "let there be light" ?

on the fourth yom God made the light to rule the heavens, and established signs and season, days and years, We are not told when they were made, only that they were made. The important thing for man was when they began to directly affect him,

 

[valiant]

OT:8414
tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

KJV - emptiness, void.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Obviously, "void and empty" is not really the best choice of meaning, especially in regards to this usage of "without form, and void":

Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
KJV

it is the ONLY choice of meaning unless you are suggesting that God created it waste,

 

[Tintin]

It's pretty simple. God created time, space, matter. The matter had no form, He gave it form. God then filled the earth with birds, fish, animals etc. and Adam and Eve.

 

[justababe]

Young earth creationism isn't biblical. It belongs to people who are ignorant of the truth found in the scriptures. Here is what Peter says about how long we should consider one day with God:

2 Peter 3:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


According to Peter one day with God is as a thousand years meaning one day with God is actually a very long period of time in human terms. So why would we argue that one day with God is 24 hours just like it is for a man? Makes no sense. The Bible doesn't tell us how old the earth actually is, but this verse in 2 Peter makes it clear that each creation day should be viewed as a very long period of time and not as a day is viewed in human terms.

 

[Tintin]

Young earth creationism isn't biblical. It belongs to people who are ignorant of the truth found in the scriptures. Here is what Peter says about how long we should consider one day with God:

2 Peter 3:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


According to Peter one day with God is as a thousand years meaning one day with God is actually a very long period of time in human terms. So why would we argue that one day with God is 24 hours just like it is for a man? Makes no sense. The Bible doesn't tell us how old the earth actually is, but this verse in 2 Peter makes it clear that each creation day should be viewed as a very long period of time and not as a day is viewed in human terms.

Oh, Jack. When will you learn? If you knew your Bible and practiced biblical hermeneutics, you'd know that you're using this verse out of context and that it has nothing to do with the age of the earth.

 

[DP]

it is the ONLY choice of meaning unless you are suggesting that God created it waste,

Funny!

You're the one wrongly claiming God created the earth in a state of nothingness and vanity at Gen.1:2, not me.

The Jer.4:23-28 example in Hebrew reveals how tohuw va bohuw of Gen.1:2 was actuallymeant, showing the earth in a broken down state, the mountains and hills shaking, with the fruitful place becoming a wilderness, and the earth in mourning.

 

[DP]

Oh, Jack. When will you learn? If you knew your Bible and practiced biblical hermeneutics, you'd know that you're using this verse out of context and that it has nothing to do with the age of the earth.

He's actually very correct in how he read the 2 Pet.3:8 verse. It does mean that to God a day is like a thousand years.

But applying that to God's creation is still not going to determine for us how old this earth is, so that's a debate not really worth getting into.

 

[DP]

More Hebrew 'tohuw' ("without form") examples of how the KJV translators brought the word into English:

Isa 40:23
23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
KJV

There's tohuw again used in the sense of an existing object that goes into a bad state.

 

[DP]

Isa 40:17
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
KJV

And yet another example of Hebrew tohuw ("without form") translated to mean something gone into a worthless condition.

 

[DP]

Isa 24:10
10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
KJV

Hebrew tohuw shown again as a state of confusion something goes into. That's what Gen.1:2 is showing about the earth.

 

[Bowman]

I always want to be open to new information.
also, I consider it a real possibility that the earth was created "already in motion", such that mainstream science rightly dates it to billions of years old.

More painful twisting of reality and scripture for the YEC.

Not only do you want Adam and Eve to be full grown, capable of speech, and ready to go, when first created…now you want the earth to already be in motion, with the appearance of age, when created?

Anything else you want to go with your theological drive-through to make it more convenient for you?

How about we super-size your fries to go with that, as well?

Stop forcing your wanton worldview upon scripture…

 

[posthuman]

on the fourth yom God made the light to rule the heavens, and established signs and season, days and years, We are not told when they were made, only that they were made. The important thing for man was when they began to directly affect him,

we're not told when they were made? but you said --

on the fourth yom God made the light to rule the heavens

what if you treated everything else in the account the same way that you're now talking about Sol and the other stars?
for example - since verses 20 through 23 relate that the fishes and the birds were created, and then in 24 says there was evening and morning; the fifth day -- does that mean we're "not told" when the fishes and the birds were made? just that they were put in the ocean and the skies that day?

would that be weird, if we did that?

 

[posthuman]

on the fourth yom God made the light to rule the heavens, and established signs and season, days and years, We are not told when they were made, only that they were made. The important thing for man was when they began to directly affect him,

man wasn't around at the time, so they didn't "directly affect him" until after the 6th yom.

and yet no stars, not even the sun, are mentioned before yom 4, and the text doesn't wait until man is created before mentioning anything that affects him.

 

[posthuman]

Young earth creationism isn't biblical. It belongs to people who are ignorant of the truth found in the scriptures. Here is what Peter says about how long we should consider one day with God:

2 Peter 3:8 - New King James Version (NKJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


According to Peter one day with God is as a thousand years meaning one day with God is actually a very long period of time in human terms.

what i understand from this verse is certainly not that one 'God-day' = 1,000 'man-years'
or that whenever a day is mentioned in scripture that it's necessarily a very long time in human terms.

what i understand is that God is the Ancient of Days -- and that thousands of years are nothing to Him, like a watch in the night. His patience is great, and He is eternal -- He doesn't consider what we consider 'a long time' to be 'a long time;' He's over and above time itself, unconstrained by it, and able to stop it if He likes, extend it or contract it or whatever is His pleasure, it belongs to Him.

^ i think that's mainly what Peter's trying to get across. whether a 'day' (yom) in Genesis is figurative or literal is different. i don't think that what Peter's saying directly proves that one way or the other.

i personally lean toward a 'day' in the first couple of chapters of Genesis being figurative - i believe the whole account is literally true, but written in a greatly simplified, poetic way. a whole lot of things make more sense to me if i understand it that way. but i don't want to argue about it - i wasn't there; maybe i'm wrong.

((what am i doing in this thread anyway? how did i get here? i successfully ignored it for almost 50 pages, because i didn't want to offend ppl i love that i know believe strongly & differently from me about it.. lol))

 

[Dan_473]

on the fourth yom God made the light to rule the heavens, and established signs and season, days and years, We are not told when they were made, only that they were made. The important thing for man was when they began to directly affect him,

I agree that when they are made is not directly stated.
I think the implication is that things listed on a day are made on that day.

I think if someone wants to make the story fit with mainstream science, then it makes sense to read it looking for things not directly stated.