Gaslighting among Christians
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This thread didn't propagate onto my server until just now. (?)
Whatever.
We do need to need to hold each other accountable and be bold enough to address manipulative behaviors. It is all too easy to slip into bad habits when our egos get bruised. Satan uses people to discourage other people. Lets make sure we are part of the solution rather than the problem.
Hebrews 10:
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Whatever.
We do need to need to hold each other accountable and be bold enough to address manipulative behaviors. It is all too easy to slip into bad habits when our egos get bruised. Satan uses people to discourage other people. Lets make sure we are part of the solution rather than the problem.
Hebrews 10:
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
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That is not healthy to a child's psyche, you are making them distrust their own feelings, how can a child be assertive in how they feel, if people are making them doubt it. And to be brave or courageous, one must act in spite of the fear, not because you made fear less intimidating, otherwise you aren't overcoming anything, you are just practicing denial.
I would say that there is one sure defense against such things: continually meditating and feeding upon God's Word. Let's post some power-verses:
2 Timothy 1:7
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Psalms 111:10
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.”
Revelation 1:5,6
“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Jeremiah 29:11
“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.”
1 Peter 2:9
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”
You are loved and special, held close and dear by the One who matters most!
1 John 3:1
“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.”
John 15:13
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
If you are in Christ, you are a winner in the greatest sense possible!
2 Timothy 1:7
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Psalms 111:10
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.”
Revelation 1:5,6
“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Jeremiah 29:11
“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.”
1 Peter 2:9
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”
You are loved and special, held close and dear by the One who matters most!
1 John 3:1
“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.”
John 15:13
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
If you are in Christ, you are a winner in the greatest sense possible!
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Well gaslighting is in fact a form of mental flatulence. People who hate reality and the truth love to attack reality. And now we are actually living is a dystopian world. It is no longer "imagined" as shown in the definition: "The meaning of DYSTOPIA is an imagined world or society in which people lead wretched, dehumanized, fearful lives:"
Ever since the start of the COVID Scamdemic, gaslighting became the norm for the powers that be.
Ever since the start of the COVID Scamdemic, gaslighting became the norm for the powers that be.
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A better example is the study they did on children being rehabilitated for stuttering. One group was a control. One group they convinced the children that they were doing better than they were actually doing (downplaying the amount of stuttering they actually did and disassociating them from identifying as a stutterer, constant praise, etc.). And one group they convinced the children they were doing worse than they were actually doing (overcriticizing, claiming they stuttered more frequently than what was evident and identifying them as a permanent stutterers).
They witnessed positive effects for positive gaslighting and negative effects for negative gaslighting. The negative group included children that did not have stuttering to begin with and many developed stuttering as a result of the gaslighting.
I'll post a link for the study if I find it again. It was an old study and the negative gaslighting part likely wouldn't be able to be repeated modernly because of ethical concerns.
The premise of gaslighting is always the same. You paint a picture of a character or charicature that is operating consistently with the actions or a person, and then you convince the person that they are that thing. And because of the way the mind fills in the blanks for how to interact with the world, a person can start to absorb and lean on that injected identity and begin identifying with the part if they don't have a strong pre-existing sense of self (as is the case for children).
Because the mind is multilayered, it's less about forcing someone to distrust themselves and more about polarizing someone's mind to align with a part of them that is already there (however small that part may be). By saying "you never experienced fear" you are empowering and speaking to a part of them that legitimately never experiences fear (or that is readily capable of overcoming it) even though they do fear as a whole. This part of them may only exist as a character in their mind, but they will start to emulate what that character would do and start to see themselves as that character.
They witnessed positive effects for positive gaslighting and negative effects for negative gaslighting. The negative group included children that did not have stuttering to begin with and many developed stuttering as a result of the gaslighting.
I'll post a link for the study if I find it again. It was an old study and the negative gaslighting part likely wouldn't be able to be repeated modernly because of ethical concerns.
The premise of gaslighting is always the same. You paint a picture of a character or charicature that is operating consistently with the actions or a person, and then you convince the person that they are that thing. And because of the way the mind fills in the blanks for how to interact with the world, a person can start to absorb and lean on that injected identity and begin identifying with the part if they don't have a strong pre-existing sense of self (as is the case for children).
Because the mind is multilayered, it's less about forcing someone to distrust themselves and more about polarizing someone's mind to align with a part of them that is already there (however small that part may be). By saying "you never experienced fear" you are empowering and speaking to a part of them that legitimately never experiences fear (or that is readily capable of overcoming it) even though they do fear as a whole. This part of them may only exist as a character in their mind, but they will start to emulate what that character would do and start to see themselves as that character.
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So because a secular worldly study showed positive effects, you are recommending we should lie to a child for their own benefit? How is that a Godly thing to do. Christians should never advocate lying as a method of teaching, rather should opt for the truth. Next you'll be saying there is nothing wrong with a white lie. It is better to teach them that the only power fear has, is the power you give it. That perfect love casts out fear, that God can give them the power to overcome and he can help them be bold and courageous.
Say you do use positive gaslighting, what then happens if they take that learned behaviour and use it on others or themselves, but there isn't a positive outcome, that could do more harm than good. And aren't you then teaching the child behaviour that could be used badly or to harm others? Is that really a good idea?
The people with the best mental health are balanced individuals who know and understand their own feelings and can communicate that to others properly. Being unable to be assertive or unable to understand and communicate your emotions or feelings can lead to many different mental health issues.
My question would be, do you think being able to trust in your own feelings and being assertive or having assurance in how you feel is that a bad thing?
Say you do use positive gaslighting, what then happens if they take that learned behaviour and use it on others or themselves, but there isn't a positive outcome, that could do more harm than good. And aren't you then teaching the child behaviour that could be used badly or to harm others? Is that really a good idea?
The people with the best mental health are balanced individuals who know and understand their own feelings and can communicate that to others properly. Being unable to be assertive or unable to understand and communicate your emotions or feelings can lead to many different mental health issues.
My question would be, do you think being able to trust in your own feelings and being assertive or having assurance in how you feel is that a bad thing?
L
Feelings can be very misleading. Understanding and rationality are more reliable. Our world is full of people who feel ways that just are not true when measured against reality. One example is that people marry because they have certain feelings. Then when those feelings are different they divorce, and we have nearly a 50% divorce rate.
I cant count the number of times i have witnessed someone have feelings about a thing and then acted on their feelings only to find out they didnt have all the information and were acting irrational.
Its messy and rainy today and i dont feel like going to work. But im going to anyway. So why bother feeling that way.
The whole "wokeism" thing in our culture is all a feelings based idiology, thats a mess.
I cant count the number of times i have witnessed someone have feelings about a thing and then acted on their feelings only to find out they didnt have all the information and were acting irrational.
Its messy and rainy today and i dont feel like going to work. But im going to anyway. So why bother feeling that way.
The whole "wokeism" thing in our culture is all a feelings based idiology, thats a mess.
L
Gaslighting by definition is abusive, there is no such thing as "positive gaslighting".
What those guys are talking about is called positive reinforcement, up playing" improvement and "down playing" failure as a form of enouragement works well with children and adults. Statements like, "a person who dont make mistakes likely isnt doing anything", encourages folks to keep on after a failure. And statements like, "i knew that i had the right person for the job", when they over come an error encourages the person to keep improving.
What those guys are talking about is called positive reinforcement, up playing" improvement and "down playing" failure as a form of enouragement works well with children and adults. Statements like, "a person who dont make mistakes likely isnt doing anything", encourages folks to keep on after a failure. And statements like, "i knew that i had the right person for the job", when they over come an error encourages the person to keep improving.
L
Where does this information come from?
?
Those same people...
What i have witnessed, is that people who recogize that they are having feelings about a thing and then assess the feelings in the light of reality and facts and then act/speak on the facts rather than the feelings have better mental health.
?
Those same people...
What i have witnessed, is that people who recogize that they are having feelings about a thing and then assess the feelings in the light of reality and facts and then act/speak on the facts rather than the feelings have better mental health.
L
Back to the subject at hand.
I didnt teach my children that satan claws is real. I did teach them the story behind Saint Nicolas. There is a real back story there. While it dont contain reindeer, flying sleds, or breaking into homes. It does contain extraordinary acts of charity and zeal for defending the faith.
I didnt teach my children that satan claws is real. I did teach them the story behind Saint Nicolas. There is a real back story there. While it dont contain reindeer, flying sleds, or breaking into homes. It does contain extraordinary acts of charity and zeal for defending the faith.
Manipulators push boundaries constantly...they lie and exaggerate the truth constantly with their narratives.
That's gaslighting.
Paul talked about "weak willed widows" in Timothy and how manipulative men would worm their way into their homes.
However today there is no such definitive gender roles. Women have demonstrated that they are just as capable of being manipulative as men...probably more so.
Watch out for "infinitives" when they speak. "You always...." or "You never...."
Then there's the assignment of emotions and attitudes where the manipulator tells you how you feel or what you think. They don't ask...they inform on these topics.
Now your average preacher does this same thing with his sermons. He tells you how you are a "good guy/girl" for coming to church today and how you are so much better than those who engage in adultery, stealing, and other criminal activity....and BTW if you could put some money in the offering plate so we can do the work Jesus said to....
That's gaslighting and manipulation too.
It's so common today that it's kinda laughable. They don't get ugly people to do commercials. There's a reason for that. We all have a desire to belong. And if it's the "cool kids club" so much the better. It's how Hitler created his special groups. "We will like you if you say and do these things" is always a subtlety....and yet another form of manipulation.
They are of course the cults. Some cults are constructive. Some are destructive and isolating. Pick your poison well.
That's gaslighting.
Paul talked about "weak willed widows" in Timothy and how manipulative men would worm their way into their homes.
However today there is no such definitive gender roles. Women have demonstrated that they are just as capable of being manipulative as men...probably more so.
Watch out for "infinitives" when they speak. "You always...." or "You never...."
Then there's the assignment of emotions and attitudes where the manipulator tells you how you feel or what you think. They don't ask...they inform on these topics.
Now your average preacher does this same thing with his sermons. He tells you how you are a "good guy/girl" for coming to church today and how you are so much better than those who engage in adultery, stealing, and other criminal activity....and BTW if you could put some money in the offering plate so we can do the work Jesus said to....
That's gaslighting and manipulation too.
It's so common today that it's kinda laughable. They don't get ugly people to do commercials. There's a reason for that. We all have a desire to belong. And if it's the "cool kids club" so much the better. It's how Hitler created his special groups. "We will like you if you say and do these things" is always a subtlety....and yet another form of manipulation.
They are of course the cults. Some cults are constructive. Some are destructive and isolating. Pick your poison well.
So you are a psychologist? or a psychiatrist? a therapist? or maybe a counsellor? you at least have a degree in psychology? or is this your understanding of how things work because of your observations? As someone who has dealt with adults who were brought up with the very parental actions your speaking about, it wasn't good for those people and it didn't work, it only made them doubt themselves in many areas of their lives. The only way to conquer any fear, is to face it, not convince yourself it was never there because that is just a lie. Truth is the only thing that sets people free, lies and deceit, deceiving ourselves through rational thinking only buries the truth. It's better to face any fear and gain power over it when you realize that it was never that scary then trying to combat irrational fears and thoughts with rational thinking.