Right.
I always try to point out that the Thessalonians were (even back then) experiencing ongoing "persecutions and tribulations" ['that ye endure'] per 2Th1:4, etc...-
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Right.
I always try to point out that the Thessalonians were (even back then) experiencing ongoing "persecutions and tribulations" ['that ye endure'] per 2Th1:4, etc...
Thus I am open to a pre-wrath (mid) view of the rapture.Right.
Isaiah speaks of saved individuals dying before the age of 100 on the new earth. These must be from the second resurrection. Isaiah 65:20
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. (From the New International Version bible)
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. (From the New International Version bible)
And the context of 1st Thessalonians 5.....is the last of Chapter 4.....they are ONE day.....the same day......
And yet you are arguing against it with me.......which is exactly what I am saying....go figure
Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1Th 4:18)
'therefore' sums up what went before.
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. (1Th 5:1)
'now concerning the times...' takes up a new thought.
The answer to your question is that the first resurrection (which pertains strictly to Christ and His saints) occurs in THREE PHASES. Just like a Hebrew harvest.
1. THE FIRST FRUITS -- the resurrection of Christ and some of the saints at that time
2. THE MAIN HARVEST -- the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church
3. THE GLEANINGS -- the Tribulation saints which were beheaded by the Antichrist
1 CORINTHIANS 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept...
23 But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; [2] afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
BUT of the times and SEASONS..........
The context is the resurrection/change........!! <---AND we are NOT in darkness that that day should over take us as a THIEF..........
We're just going to have to disagree there partner. 'Now concerning the times and the seasons, ' starts another thought.
Have you answered if you are taking a post trib (7years) position or mid trib?
Did you switch from a few years back?
I hold that position as a good possibility.
Wait, 'ingathering?', you mean rapture correct?
I have been post trib, pre wrath ingathering since 1992 when I began to see errors with the invisible imminent return of Christ peddled in most churches.....
YES.....INGATHERING <---resurrection/change
I put some of the following in a different thread awhile back... (except for the bottom part, I think).
V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."
This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.
Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -
1)
the departure first
and the man of sin
be revealed
2)
what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that
he
might be revealed IN HIS TIME
3)
only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]
and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked
be revealed
All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).
Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Paul is saying, don't let anyone convince you "the DOTL IS PRESENT.")
So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:
[key: X='you are here'...…. "first vertical line is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']"...<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>……….."second vertical line is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: "the DOTL" continues clear throughout the MK age also [so is including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" (red) as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY (purple)])]
-----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>
Verse 3 - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST [arrow UP], and the man of sin be revealed [arrow horizontal to the right, from that point]..."
(he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a (SEAL 1)], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4], nor at its END [2Th2:8b])
V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [<--this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."
This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.
Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -
1)
the departure first
and the man of sin
be revealed
2)
what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that
he
might be revealed IN HIS TIME
3)
only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]
and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked
be revealed
All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).
Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold upon the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Paul is saying, don't let anyone convince you "the DOTL IS PRESENT.")
So the DEPICTION of this looks like the following:
[key: X='you are here'...…. "first vertical line is 'arrow UP' [='THE Departure *FIRST*']"...<then DOTL will be in existence on the earth w/its 'man of sin' (SEAL #1) and 'judgments' unfolding>……….."second vertical line is Jesus' "RETURN" to the earth ('arrow down') FOR the earthly MK age (note: "the DOTL" continues clear throughout the MK age also [so is including both "DARK/IN THE NIGHT" (red) as well as the FULL LIGHT OF DAY (purple)])]
-----X---l_<DOTL>__________l______________<1000y>_______________>
Verse 3 - "that day [the DOTL time period] will not be present, if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST [arrow UP], and the man of sin be revealed [arrow horizontal to the right, from that point]..."
(he is revealed at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:9a/8a (SEAL 1)], not at its MIDDLE [2Th2:4], nor at its END [2Th2:8b])
...by the way, that "color-coded" thing did not originate with me, but by a Greek grammar scholar somewhere on the web long ago, which I've not been able to locate (again) since I came across it years ago...
I must have misunderstood you a few years back.
Are you allergic to the word rapture, since it is the commonly used translated word for harpazo ?
The reason I hold back from the pre-wrath position is because it does away with 'imminency'. There are too many warnings in Scripture to always 'watch and be ready for you do not know when'. Example...
Matthew 24:42 (KJV) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Not allergic to the word, just that it is described better by the word....and the Grandsville SHARP Paul uses in 2nd Thessalonians 2 when he TIES the BODY presence to OUR gathering together called the DAY of CHRIST in 2nd Thessalonians........and regardless BOTH PETER and PAUL tie ALL three days together as ONE DAY......so does the 7th trump where we have....
Jesus as LORD seizes control of ALL earthly KINGDOMS
JESUS as CHRIST rewards the SAINTS, prophets and those that fear GOD both young and OLD
JESUS as GOD pours out his wrath on the world gathered under the banner of the beast
JESUS is LORD, CHRIST and GOD
Allow my to make one more point about the above portion:
--"the Day of the Lord" [note: many versions show this being the phrase in 2Th2:2] is
- a time period that was prophesied about quite a bit in the OT ["crossnote" had listed many of them]
- a duration of time which ONLY ever takes place ON THE EARTH
- involves BOTH "darkness/negatives/judgments-unfolding" AND the "blessings" afterward
- when "the Church which is His body" (SOLELY) will be UP THERE in His Presence (following "our Rapture/Departure IN THE AIR)
- when Paul was referring to when he said he was promised a "stephanos/crown" IN THAT DAY -2Tim4:8 [see also Rev4:4/5:9/Eph4:30 (and Eph1:14)]
- when the "Bema of Christ" (for "reward" [pertaining to His Body/the 'ONE BODY']) takes place
- when "the MARRIAGE" itself takes place (2Cor11:2 - "present 'A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]' to Christ" [Rev19:7 (aorist) being distinct from 19:9])--the "WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION-with'/'IDENTIFICATION-with'] HIM"
- is strictly NT [(epistles) revelation [per NT "apostles and prophets"]--do a SEARCH for this phrase [DOC] to see where IT is found in Scripture
[these run concurrently ^ ]
This is what I mean when I had said that this pertains to "the glory of God in two spheres".
Explains why we see "stephanos/crowns" on the "24 elders" [and "24 thrones"] IN HEAVEN before the FIRST SEAL is opened, and what they say in Rev5:9... and why we see the wording of "was found" (which pertains to a "searching-judgment" having been done); and recall the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (time period) which pertains to the "future" aspects of the Book (4:1/1:19c [earthly-aspect, along with Lk18:8(chpt-17-end)]), and with the heavenly-aspect being spoken of in Romans 16:20 ("...shall bruise Satan under YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period being the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk, when "the man of sin" will be doing ALL he is slated to do throughout those 7-yrs, on the earth ["after/in-accordance-with the working of Satan..."] "IN HIS TIME" [i.e. the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT" portion of "the DOTL" (earthly) time period (Dan7:7, etc)])
From a Amil standpoint "signified" the language introduced in verse 1 of Revelation". all of the metaphors in that parable chapter 20 have a signified means to include the word thousand.
The man of sin is being revealed as a warning to us who walk by faith (the unseen) The details are revealed in 1 John 2, as well as 1 John 4, and 2 John 1 .
To violate the warning is to blaspheme the name of God in respect to His unseen holy place.(faith)
For instance. When Peter is used as a example ( Mathew 16:22-23) of one of the many antichrists (plural) that John says were already there . When Peter rebukes the Son of man Jesus... denying he finish the work of the father. Christ identifies the working of the spirit of the anti-christ (singular) Satan who works in men called antichrists( plural many) . Peter was forgiven seeing it was against Jesus as the Son of man seen . Jesus would not accept worship that alone is reconciled with the father not seen . When men without faith did try and squeeze the Son of man into the unseen holy place of the father . He did say only God (not seen is good) we walk by faith the holy place of God. .
Today blasphemy will not be overlooked so easily I don't think it mean shake the dust and do not offer the true gospel as the true fast. .God can send a strong delusions if a person is trusting in man seen rather than the unseen holy place. Just as he can send the light as he did with forgiven Peter. I would say heed the warning in 1 John 2:27 and 28. It has revealed the man of sin (those who say we must have a man seen the temporal to teach us. We abide in Christ the promised teacher comforter and guide and.....who alone does bring to our mind the things he has tahgt us . His name is jealous in the way. His love is not jealous .