Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

[oyster67]

seems Paul is making 2 points here...one about the law and one about new life in Christ

the law exposes sin and we know that no one can keep the law so breaking the law is inevitable, so that even if we wanted to please God by keeping His law, we would still fail. so in ourselves we cannot please God by presenting anything under law because it exposes the fact we are judged by the law and always found wanting

he says he delights in the law in the inward man...in other words he agrees with it...he would like to agree with it by keeping it but can't. his flesh or imperfect deeds, are judged and he always falls short

the solution to this enigma is agreeing with what God says, that we are not judged by the law, but are 'saved' from the law by faith in Christ. so in that way we are released from the law but bound to Christ

that would be a very brief synopsis

but it seems you were asking about addicts? I guess you mean addicted to alcohol or tobacco or similar?

I don't think God sees us in this condition the way we see ourselves..mind you I've never been an addict in the sense it is usually viewed, but all of us have our 'crutches' or whatever you want to call them on which we depend to 'deal'

I may not have understood you, but you can let me know about that I guess

I think dealing with a 'guilty conscience' is a big part of separating yourself from sin and understanding that you are who God says you are and not some unworthy person. we are all unworthy, but in no way would I think that allows for any type of attitude that is 'relaxed' towards sin, but the struggle can be debilitating

we can also get into the area of 'strongholds' that the Bible speaks of

Yes, this was my understanding of the passage also. Thank you so much. Some seem to think that the passage is complex or complicated. It strengthens us to know that the selfsame Spirit will speak the same thing to all true seekers about a given passage. Although we will not arrive at absolute perfection until glorification, we should still fight the good fight and keep striving right up to the end. This is how growth occurs.

Thank you, brother.

 

[oyster67]

Nope. He's just like you. A Judaizer.

To whom are you referring, Budman?

 

[Macabeus]

In everything. It's the very reason we can be called completely holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12), righteous (Romans 3:22), perfect (Hebrews 10:14), and saints (Philippians 4:21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2).

SO your WALK is as holy and SINLESS as Christ? OK, Bud. Why do you need a High Priest in heaven interceding for you then?

 

[Macabeus]

In everything. It's the very reason we can be called completely holy (Hebrews 10:10, 13:12), righteous (Romans 3:22), perfect (Hebrews 10:14), and saints (Philippians 4:21-22, 1 Corinthians 1:2).

Yet again, tell it to Paul.

"For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want." (Romans 7:19)

Read the part in red. That verse means he is unwilling, doesn't it. You intimated that we are all willing slaves to sin.

 

[Macabeus]

Then by your scripture twisting, Paul the apostle was not saved.

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

All present tense, BigMac.

If Paul walked up to you on the street and told you to your face what he wrote, that he "serves the law of sin", that he is "carnal", that he wants to do good but instead "does evil", you would claim he wasn't a Christian at all.

Nice try, but no cigar.

A slave is one who is owned and at the disposal of someone else. Slaves were those who were bought, sold, and owned by someone else. You are arguing that Paul was owned by Jesus and owned by sin at the same. That shows the perverseness of your doctrine.

Paul was redeemed by the Blood of Christ. He belonged to Christ. Nobody and nothing else owned him. Christ owned him. His spirit and body were Christ's, not sins. Even though he was not sinless.

 

[Macabeus]

You tell me. You and I both know you commit them. Or are you going to take that final self-righteous step and claim you no longer sin?

Never said I don't sin. Never said you don't sin. But we are not slaves to sin, because we have been redeemed. Sin has no claim on us. A slave is one who is owned and at the disposal of another. If you and I are saved, we are not owned and at the disposal of anyone except Jesus.

Though we may not always live like it

 

[Macabeus]

Since all sin, despite your desperate claim that one can sin without the will being involved, is a choice, we are all slaves to it. Which is why God gave us the Law, and why Christ had to come and die. The Law shows us our sinfulness, and Jesus made atonement on our behalf.

A slave was basically owned by his or her master. That is the basic definition of sin. So if we are slaves to sin, that means sin owns us. But we have been bought, body and soul, by the blood of Christ. We belong to HIM now.

How can you be a slave to sin when you were redeemed by the blood of Jesus?

 

[Macabeus]

He that believes on the SON is NOT condemned.....something about being passed fro DEATH UNTO LIFE

Everyone here knows that. No one is arguing against that.

 

[Macabeus]

If nothing can damn me, how could being a slave to sin do it? You keep pushing that "slave" thing without being aware that a single sin attributed to us damns us. You can commit a single sin in the course of your life, and if that sin wasn't paid for at the cross, when you die, you'll wake up in the lake of fire.

Contradict yourself much?

You teach that Christians, even Paul, are and were slaves of sin. This is unbiblical.

Romans 6:17- But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (notice the tense of the verb "WERE"

Romans 6:18- Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans :20- For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:22- But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[Macabeus]

If nothing can damn me, how could being a slave to sin do it? You keep pushing that "slave" thing without being aware that a single sin attributed to us damns us. You can commit a single sin in the course of your life, and if that sin wasn't paid for at the cross, when you die, you'll wake up in the lake of fire.

Contradict yourself much?

You contradict yourself by saying a Christian can be a slave to sin. A slave is owned by it's master. We are not owned by sin. We are owned by Jesus.

1 Corinthians 6:20- 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Romans 6:14- For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Macabeus]

Sure I do. And you do to. What's hilarious is you seem to believe that claiming you didn't do it on purpose is an excuse God will accept. God will accept it the same as a human judge would. Not at all.

"Yes judge, I did rob that bank, but I did it against my will. I really didn't mean to do it. It was a robbery of omission!"

Yeaaaah, good luck with that. A single wicked thought is enough to condemn.

I didn't say all sin was unintentional. I said all imperfection is sin, and not all my imperfections are by conscious choice. Some of my imperfections are the result of the sanctification not being complete yet. SO stop with the red herrings.

 

[Macabeus]

Nope. He's just like you. A Judaizer.

I am reporting this post.

 

[Macabeus]

Sure I do. And you do to. What's hilarious is you seem to believe that claiming you didn't do it on purpose is an excuse God will accept. God will accept it the same as a human judge would. Not at all.

"Yes judge, I did rob that bank, but I did it against my will. I really didn't mean to do it. It was a robbery of omission!"

Yeaaaah, good luck with that. A single wicked thought is enough to condemn.

A wise person once said "the birds are going to fly over your head, but you don't have to let them make a nest in your hair"

The birds flying overhead (thoughts popping into my mind) is not always a conscious choice. Entertaining them is a conscious choice.

You are the most confused person I have ever seen.

 

[Macabeus]

Yet again, tell it to Paul.

"For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want." (Romans 7:19)

But you said "willing" slave to sin. The text says the very evil that I do not want.

Doing what you do not want to do is doing something unwillingly.

First part of your argument refuted right there...

Now to refute the second part of your argument...It is evident that we are not slaves to sin, because a slave is OWNED by his or her master. WE are not owned by sin, we are owned by Jesus, having been bought with a price, redeemed by the precious blood of Christ.

Even though we are not sinless, we are free from sin. (the Bible says it, that settles it.)

We just don't always live like it.

 

[Macabeus]

are you STILL going on about this? it did not even involve you …….

you and Bud are defending DC's false accusation of Argueless. I guess it's OK to falsely accuse someone, since the sin of false accusation is already paid for?

According to your doctrine, Jesus purchased indulgences to sin for you.

 

[Macabeus]

you and Bud are defending DC's false accusation of Argueless. I guess it's OK to falsely accuse someone, since the sin of false accusation is already paid for?

According to your doctrine, Jesus purchased indulgences to sin for you.

Note and postscript...I am not saying the doctrine of OSAS does this. I am saying that the way YOU apply it seems to do this.

 

[Macabeus]

maybe you need to learn the principle Biblical definition of sin before you continue your lecturing of that which you know not off.

ARE you STILL obsessing over that?

So it's OK to keep bringing up repeatedly a definition that you don't agree with, but it's bad to keep bringing up a false accusation that one has not repented of.

 

[Macabeus]

To whom are you referring, Budman?

If you want you can report him, Oyster. I did.

 

[gb9]

I am not onve osas. I believe that when one chooses to accept Christ, then because of free will, one could one day choose to walk away.

which would probably mean one did not really believe to start with .

and, I do not think that those of us who tell the truth that one is saved by belief in Christ alone has a license to sin,

so there.

 

[gb9]

ARE you STILL obsessing over that?

So it's OK to keep bringing up repeatedly a definition that you don't agree with, but it's bad to keep bringing up a false accusation that one has not repented of.

the definition of sin is to miss the mark, fall short of a standard , know to do good and not do so.
Paul even said anything not of faith is sin.

that is the definition. if one disagress with this, then one is calling the Bible a lie.

there is no debate about this. only those like f.h.s. ( peterjens) try to create one to push man-made lies.