Faith or Law?

[Nedsk]

james says we are saved by faith . But then he just explains a bit more that faith isn’t just what we say , but it also includes our actions.


“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works:

shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. ( this is the point he’s making )



Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18, 21-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Noah had said I believe you God ….. that wouldn’t have saved him . But he heard what zgod told him was coming and what to do then he actually believed him and acted as if he believed . His belief was in line with his actions that’s faith

I agree but people here seem to think works are a "result" of faith. Works are a choice they dont appear simply because of faith.

 

[TruthDefender]

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in God. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits. For example, our good works in obedience to the Law of God embody God’s goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God’s goodness we are also embodying the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as he is holy (1 Peter 1:16). This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God. This is also why the Bible frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments.

So in other words, be like Jesus in all things. Emulate what is good. Live in Him daily…. This is also works, is it not?

 

[TruthDefender]

I agree but people here seem to think works are a "result" of faith. Works are a choice they dont appear simply because of faith.

If you believe in Him and do His will, doesn’t this show up in your daily actions (works)?

Are we not to strive to be more like Him? If we are like Him, people will notice that we are different, as we should be.

 

[Soyeong]

So in other words, be like Jesus in all things. Emulate what is good. Live in Him daily…. This is also works, is it not?

Indeed, followers of Christ should follow his example of embodying the character traits of God in obedience to His law, which involves doing works.

 

[TruthDefender]

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭


that’s a really hard concept to accept when you were taught all along “ what you do has no relevance to the outcome “

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭

i don’t think some can actually hear what this is saying


“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬


it seems simple and straight forward but it’s hard to get many to acknowledge tbat it’s true . I’m becoming conviced it’s because of that people are taught before they hear the truth in scripture. So the o terotetarions always just ignore plain and clear statements like Paul just made there to the church and then a few quotes from unrelated places are quoted and then …. Wahlah! The whole thing paul just taught the church becomes wrong in certain minds ot just doesn’t fit the pre imposed doctrine

True!
Who are “the o terotetarions?”

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it it or to experience getting to drive it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it as the result. Our obedience to the Law of God contributes nothing towards earning our salvation as the result (Titus 3:5), but rather rather our salvation intrinsically requires us to choose to be a doer of the Law of God because the experience of being a doer of it part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works first in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be doers of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being doers of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

I am glad to see that you do not believe we are saved by works, but rather we are saved unto good works. But I till do not understand the "or else" part of your argument. Is salvation lost when the things that are required of a person who has been saved are not fulfilled (i.e., when he does not choose to break the law or does an ungodly act)?

You indicated before that forgiveness comes into play in these circumstances. But you also indicated that God does not require saved people to be perfect. You also argued that a character trait can be a flawed character trait and still be counted as good. And you have also argued that wanting to do good but not doing dood is not the character trait of saved people. But it seems like these four things are in conflict with each other because forgiveness is not necessary if a flawed character trait is counted as good or imperfect people can be counted as righteous and being a doer of the law (with the right intentions) does not align with not doing the law on occasion and feeling bad about it.

 

[Gideon300]

I agree but people here seem to think works are a "result" of faith. Works are a choice they dont appear simply because of faith.

It depends on who is doing the living. In reality, God includes every believer in the death of Christ. Every human being is born dead in trespass and sin. Since we can think, choose and feel still, it is obviously not the soul of man that is dead. It is the spirit that God breathed into Him to give us life. That spirit was "good", but empty. Hence the tree of Life in Eden. Man could have, should have eaten from the tree of life. He chose to eat instead of the fruit that killed him. Again, it was spiritual death, causing separation from God.

Two objects cannot occupy the same space. In order to give us a new spirit, which is to be born again, God has to remove the old, dead spirit. This he does by means of the cross. God includes us in Christ when we accept Him as saviour and Lord. We are included in His death. We are also raised together with Christ so that we have resurrection life, life that comes out of death. Read Galatians 2:20 if you do not follow me.

The question becomes, what is the source of life for the believer now? While we have a new spirit, the body and soul are not immediately changed. We will receive a new body when we go to be with the Lord. There is no other way. However, the soul realm is where we make our choices. Some choose to be governed by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Some are governed by their will power, by thoughts, opinions, concepts and the desires of self.

As it was with Adam, we have a choice in this life. We can go to the tree of knowledge of good and evil and life according to its dictates. Or we can go to the tree of Life and live according to the leading, motivation and empowering of the Holy Spirit. Most Christians vacillate from one to the other, sometimes in the Spirit but more often, ruled by the self of the soul.

Some never break out of this cycle. It is never a life of victory. It is a struggle to overcome and it is in vain. Some realise very early on that the Christian life is only available in and through Christ. Others get to that place later in life. Look it up sometime. The NT states "in Christ" at least 50 times. All we have that is of any value is found only in Christ.

Most people think that we are saved by faith. Not true. We are saved by grace. Everyone knows that verse. But we are also saved by the life of Christ (Romans 5:10). Is this a contradiction? Not at all. Grace is in reality the life of Christ working in us to do God's will.

Works simply validate faith. They are the outworking of faith. And where does that faith come from? It is Christ in us.

Since we are crucified with Christ, what does God expect of us? Nothing. If we could be reformed, if we could learn to obey, then God would have not needed to send Jesus to die and rise again for us. It's so simple that most Christians miss it. It's no longer I but Christ. Does a bird study a flight manual, go to flight school, strap on an engine and try to fly? No. it flies precisely because it is in its nature to fly. Many believers do not understand that they are truly new creations in Christ. They spend their lives trying to be what God has already made us to be. And they fail. So they try harder. And fail more. Some get mad at God at this point and quit because it's too hard. Others realise that they have been been trying to make a dead man alive, instead of enjoying the new life that they have in Christ. We get to choose. I struggled with the "trying" way for way too long. I finally quit and Jesus does the living in and through me now. My wife will testify as to which version of me she prefers!

 

[TruthDefender]

Just fell on this .....
Yes. I doubt we are able to have the character traits of Jesus.
Maybe if one is mormon he might believe this.



So what IS a good work?
Maybe if it's difficult you're doing more than Jesus might be requesting of you?



Amen to that!
Some on these forums don't even think obedience to God is all that important.
Seems they sure do give a lot of pushback when I state that God demands obedience from us.
Seems that they believe it's a choice...


Agreed 100%
Alhtough I do believe that at some point the broad road will not seem to enticing to us who are on the narrow road.

You're not "falling away".....falling away causes one to lose their salvation...
what you're doing is sinning
and John taught us the remedy for this....
(and sinning is different than living in sin..just to be clear)


1 John 1:7-9
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You don’t have to be Mormon to believe in having the character traits of Jesus.

If Jesus is in us, then His traits are manifest.
This doesn’t mean we are perfect by any means, but rather we are perfected by Him. People notice that we are different, because we act and speak differently than the world.

 

[Nedsk]

If you believe in Him and do His will, doesn’t this show up in your daily actions (works)?

Are we not to strive to be more like Him? If we are like Him, people will notice that we are different, as we should be.

I agree but our daily actions are choices not the result of faith. As an example if feeding the hungry is a good work, but good works are only a result of faith then atheists wouldn't be able to feed the hungry. That's silly. Good works done with faith are salvific but good works alone like faith alone are not sufficient for salvation.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I agree but people here seem to think works are a "result" of faith. Works are a choice they dont appear simply because of faith.

Yes, works come from faith. Abraham believed God's promise that through Isaac the "Seed" would come. As a result of that, when God told him to offer Issac as a burnt offering, he was willing to go through with it because he looked back at that promise and concluded that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead after he killed Isaac (Heb 11:17-19). This is how what a person believes motivates their actions. And as observers, we can see what Abraham truly believed about God's promise because he was willing to sacrifice his son.

Even today, people's actions still reveal what they really believe. Two people say they believe Jesus' sacrifice for their sins is sufficient for their salvation. But one person is resting all his weight on Christ and the other one is working hard to maintain his salvation. Which one's actions corroborate his faith, the one resting or the one working?

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:10)

 

[Nedsk]

Yes, works come from faith. Abraham believed God's promise that through Isaac the "Seed" would come. As a result of that, when God told him to offer Issac as a burnt offering, he was willing to go through with it because he looked back at that promise and concluded that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead after he killed Isaac (Heb 11:17-19). This is how what a person believes motivates their actions. And as observers, we can see what Abraham truly believed about God's promise because he was willing to sacrifice his son.

Even today, people's actions still reveal what they really believe. Two people say they believe Jesus' sacrifice for their sins is sufficient for their salvation. But one person is resting all his weight on Christ and the other one is working hard to maintain His salvation. Which one's actions corroborate his faith, the one resting or the one working?

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:10)

If its true that works come from faith then atheists couldn't do good works. That's silly. Works done by atheists arent salvific but works done in faith are. That's why James says faith is completed by works and why faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. If faith was it wouldn't need completion. You have to know what sufficient means.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't hear the word "embody" used very often to describe what we believe to be true about God and I don't remember anyone remember anyone saying "the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits".

To use an analogy, if two people came to a bridge that they were told that it was safe to cross and the first one chooses to stand there mentally affirming that it is safe while the second one chooses to cross the bridge, then the second one would be experiencing what it means to believe that the bridge is safe in a way that the first one is not, or in other words, second one would be embodying their belief and would be showing the kind of belief that the Bible is speaking about by believing in the Son. What exactly are we believing about the Son? The Son is the radiance if God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), so if our goal is to be like the Son, then the way to experience the belief that the Son is righteous is by being a doer of righteous works. In Luke 6:36, it says to be compassionate even as our Father is compassionate, so someone choosing to just mentally affirming that the Father is compassionate without being compassionate is not correctly understanding what it means to believe that God is compassionate..

I personally find obedience and doing good works quite difficult, I struggle to obey. Obedience to God comes at great personal cost, it has caused me to be cut off from many of my family members, friends and relatives. Obedience demands sacrifice, I find self discipline hard. I can't claim that I do good works, because I'm a "good guy".

The only reason I obey God and do good works, is because He is good and He is more than worthy to receive my worship and obedience.
Instead of using the word "embody", I would use the word "follow". We follow the Lord Jesus, because He is our leader. I wouldn't chose the path that I'm on now if it was up to me, my natural default preference is to walk on the Broadway, because it's the easy way and most of my friends are on it.

All I'm trying to convey here is that, I take no credit for any good work I have done or that I'm currently doing. All the credit goes to the Lord, because He is the One who began this work of transformation in me, and He is the One who will complete the work of salvation.
I would have fallen away hundreds of times, if the Holy Spirit wasn't leading me against my will. Being led by the Spirit doesn't feel natural or easy, but we know He does all things with our best interest in mind.

I agree on one level that we should follow what God has commanded simply because Jesus is Lord, but there is more to it than that. God could have conceivably commanded anything that He wanted, but His commands are not arbitrary, rather there is purpose in everything that God chose to command, which is to teach us how to know Him by embodying His character traits. The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to have an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, works come from faith. Abraham believed God's promise that through Isaac the "Seed" would come. As a result of that, when God told him to offer Issac as a burnt offering, he was willing to go through with it because he looked back at that promise and concluded that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead after he killed Isaac (Heb 11:17-19). This is how what a person believes motivates their actions. And as observers, we can see what Abraham truly believed about God's promise because he was willing to sacrifice his son.

Even today, people's actions still reveal what they really believe. Two people say they believe Jesus' sacrifice for their sins is sufficient for their salvation. But one person is resting all his weight on Christ and the other one is working hard to maintain his salvation. Which one's actions corroborate his faith, the one resting or the one working?

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:10)

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7) so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God for salvation instead of in His instructions.

Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God and in Matthew 11:28-30, he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, not inviting people to come to him for rest instead of learning from his example. By Jesus saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Law of God is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but they did not want to walk in it. In Hebrews 3:18, they did not enter into God's rest because of their disobedience, and in Ezekiel 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths, so someone should not think that they can enter into God's rest while having the same sort of disobedience that prevented the Israelites from entering into God's rest. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remans a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest from our works as God rested form his works, and we should be careful to enter into that rest so that no one might fall away by the same sort of disobedience.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself tor redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20). So the person who refuses to embody God's Word is not resting any weight on God's Word made flesh while the one who repents and is zealous for following his example embodying God's Word is resting all of their weight on him and is the one who believes that his sacrifice is sufficient for their salvation.

 

[Toknow]

You don’t have to be Mormon to believe in having the character traits of Jesus.

If Jesus is in us, then His traits are manifest.
This doesn’t mean we are perfect by any means, but rather we are perfected by Him. People notice that we are different, because we act and speak differently than the world.

Mormons think they are little gods.

 

[Eli1]

Mormons think they are little gods.

Could you please explain the whole Mormon angle to me if you don't mind? Something short in summary hopefully?
Not sure why they're so controversial in Christian circles.

 

[TruthDefender]

Mormons think they are little gods.

I’m not Mormon, so I wouldn’t know. (?)