Faith or Law?

[James456]

Likewise, the Bible uses "koinos" in Mark 7 and Matthew 15 where it is discussing the traditions of the elders in regard to whether someone can become "koinos" by eating bread with unwashed hands, which is a different issue than the commands of God in regard to refraining from eating unclean animals. I have no problem with what was plainly written in regard to the teachings, opinions, or traditions of men, but rather my problem is with you misinterpreting it as if it had been spoken in regard to the commands of God.


The topic that they were debating in Acts 15 was not whether followers of Christ should follow Christ but whether salvation is by grace (Acts 15:11) or by circumcision (Acts 15:1).

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question Acts15:5&6

I guess that must be a mistranslation too

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, you are right regarding the law fulfilling its role to bring about wrath and to avoid its wrath one must obey it without fail. The Galatians passage nails this without any wiggle room.

It's not clear to me why you are actings as if repentance isn't a thing.

One of the more interesting words in Galatians 3:11 is "evident". It is easy and effortless for a person to conclude from the Scriptures that no one will be justifed by the Law in the sight of God because the Scriptures say that all the just ones will have received eternal life through faith (not through the law). And for those who rebell against that idea, they must contend with the next statement in verse 12 that "the law is not of faith". On the contrary, obeying the law is performance based.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God but not in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

According to Deuteronomy 28-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law means that the only way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why those who rely on "works of the law" instead come under that curse.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith without a quote form Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of Moses will attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2:4 does not treat the righteous living by faith as being an alternative way of living that is not in obedience to the Law of Moses. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of Moses, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses is righteous even as they are righteous, so again the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Law of Moses, but rather it is describing the way that the righteous live in obedience to it through faith.

We can do works for a variety of reasons such as in order to earn a wage or in order to show our faith (James 2:18), so the significance of our works in regard to salvation is not that they are what we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but other the significance is that they are the way to embody our faith and it is by that faith alone that we are declared righteous and are being saved.

 

[GiftofGod23]

I grew up being taught to have a negative view of obeying the Law of Moses, however, the Psalms express an extremely positive view, so I eventually realized that if I was going to continue to believe that the Psalms are Scripture, then I needed to also believe that they express a correct view of obeying the Law of Moses and that I therefore needed to change my view to match the Psalms. For example, according to to Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, so I could not continue to believe in the truth of those words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape my view of obeying the Law of Moses. Moreover, Jesus and the Apostles should be interpreted in light of the fact that they were incomplete agreement with the Psalms and if we interpret them as expressing views that are incompatible with the truth of what they considered to be Scripture, then that should be an indication to us that we have most likely misinterpreted them.

Yes and Jesus said he was in agreement with the law and prophets. So we understand the meaning of things. The law was always meant to be the way Jesus fulfilled it. That is why Moses broke the first tablets and and brought them the law of the flesh and told them the promise of Salvation would be for a future people. And Salvation being jesus. And he he said all that call on his name will be saved. And that never changed throughout the bible. So by Jesus fulfilling the law and giving commandments, we continue to be under the covenant and not blashpheme speaking and doing evil of the law. But understanding it and then live it in spirit and truth. Which is the truth in Psalms 19. They all spoke the same word. No transitioning. Its just man's understanding that changes things into what is in his spirit. Therefore it says. No one can know God but the spirit of God. So we seek to have the spirit. Which is the holy ghost. which is the comforter. Which is the revealer of Slavation and The Word of God. Which is Jesus Christ, who is the anointed savior, that became the first begotten son, that promised us the anointing, and being anointed is having the blessing and it says Psalms 1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
[2]But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
[3]And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
So all agree and all are The Testimony of Jesus being revealed to us and the word of God.
And revelations makes this all known as true.

 

[Nedsk]

Thanks.

As we know, it's a chaotic discussion among Christians. I've come to see these things as having sufficient ambiguities in the Text to keep us working on them. We all know of this verse:

NKJ James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

The original wording of these 2 underlined word/phrases tells me that "works" are an intrinsic part of "the faith". So, it seems to reason that if we have the faith spoken of here, then works will be done at some point.

But, I'm in agreement with you that we "choose" what to do and not to do. So, it's not cut and dry at some level - there is a range from infancy all the way to maturity in the faith.

Ultimately I don't see spiritual growth and good works as entirely optional for those in Christ. When you say "automatic" what I'm trying to cover is to bring some definition or explanation to this word. On the one hand, I don't think good behavior is automatic to a child and on the other hand I don't think we as Christians are lacking a perfect Father who disciplines and provides His capabilities to His genuine children, a perfect Spirit who leads and guides and teaches them, and a perfect first first-born brother and Lord whose faith is in them (the faith that works) and to whose likeness they are being conformed.

We were created in true righteousness and holiness for good works. Getting through the typical kicking and screaming of the growth phrase, IMO from the Text, good works are not optional and choosing to do them becomes natural.

I agree with a lot of that but I bristle at the suggestion that works will follow faith as if it's unstoppable outcome of faith. If that were true there wouldn't be a need for Paul to say work out your salvation with fear and trembling or let us consider how to spur one another to love and good works. Or James to say faith without works is dead.

 

[Soyeong]

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question Acts15:5&6

I guess that must be a mistranslation too

Again, I did not claim that it was a mistranslation. Both Greek words can mean "unclean", so it is not a mistranslation to do that. The statement that nothing is "koinos" in itself does not mean the same thing as the statement that nothing is "akathartos" in itself, but you are incorrectly treating the first statement as meaning the same as the second because both can be translated into English saying that nothing is unclean in itself.

Equivocation is a logical fallacy that uses a key word or phrase in an argument with two different meanings, creating a misleading or false conclusion. For example, nothing is better than eternal happiness and sandwich is better than nothing, therefore a sandwich s better than eternal happiness. The meaning of "nothing" switched from "not a single thing" to "the absence of things".

 

[James456]

Again, I did not claim that it was a mistranslation. Both Greek words can mean "unclean", so it is not a mistranslation to do that. The statement that nothing is "koinos" in itself does not mean the same thing as the statement that nothing is "akathartos" in itself, but you are incorrectly treating the first statement as meaning the same as the second because both can be translated into English saying that nothing is unclean in itself.

Equivocation is a logical fallacy that uses a key word or phrase in an argument with two different meanings, creating a misleading or false conclusion. For example, nothing is better than eternal happiness and sandwich is better than nothing, therefore a sandwich s better than eternal happiness. The meaning of "nothing" switched from "not a single thing" to "the absence of things".

Acts15:5&6 does not concern ''unclean'' It concerns what was being debated at the Jerusalem council

 

[GiftofGod23]

I agree with a lot of that but I bristle at the suggestion that works will follow faith as if it's unstoppable outcome of faith. If that were true there wouldn't be a need for Paul to say work out your salvation with fear and trembling or let us consider how to spur one another to love and good works. Or James to say faith without works is dead.

Faith is the work. You must have faith to work. That is why faith without works is dead. And why it should be worked out with trembling and in love. Because of the commandments and the promises. The promise is to be able to come into the understanding of Christ. And the commandment being to love one another and because the work of faith is in prophecy, whomever prophesies, must have a sure understanding; As to not be an enemy of the faith. As you are working your faith.
As Paul said. He would that you recieve the gift of prophecy. Which is the spirit of God, which is the holy ghost, which Jesus said was the comforter.which would teach all things. So we As coming into the faith are to keep faith in patience and studying and praying for understanding in order to keep the covenant. Until we are lead in the right way and prophesy those things that lead to life. To speak the same as and be in the same mind. The gift of God.
So we are always working. Its either working unto death or working unto life. And Faith is the work to life.

 

[Nedsk]

Faith is the work. You must have faith to work. That is why faith without works is dead. And why it should be worked out with trembling and in love. Because of the commandments and the promises. The promise is to be able to come into the understanding of Christ. And the commandment being to love one another and because the work of faith is in prophecy, whomever prophesies, must have a sure understanding; As to not be an enemy of the faith. As you are working your faith.
As Paul said. He would that you recieve the gift of prophecy. Which is the spirit of God, which is the holy ghost, which Jesus said was the comforter.which would teach all things. So we As coming into the faith are to keep faith in patience and studying and praying for understanding in order to keep the covenant. Until we are lead in the right way and prophesy those things that lead to life. To speak the same as and be in the same mind. The gift of God.
So we are always working. Its either working unto death or working unto life. And Faith is the work to life.

If faith IS the work, as you say, how can faith without works be dead? The presence of faith will bring works, according to your position. And the statement, You must have faith to work, cant be true since atheists are quite capable of doing good works. Works can and do exist separate from faith. Whether those works are salvific or not is irrelevant. AGAIN works can and do exist outside of faith

 

[GiftofGod23]

Paul understood his work of faith and the

If faith is the work how can faith without works be dead? And the statement, You must have faith to work, cant be true since atheists are quite capable of doing dood works. Works can and do exist separate from faith.

Faith without works is dead. Because the work of faith is Gods work. All other works are dead. Of dead men.
So yes. Good works, but not the work of God. Dead works.

 

[Nedsk]

Paul understood his work of faith and the

Faith without works is dead. Because the work of faith is Gods work. All other works are dead. Of dead men.
So yes. Good works, but not the work of God. Dead works.

That literally is just circular reasoning. It means nothing. It's like saying a chair is chair because it's not a tree.

 

[GiftofGod23]

Ezekiel 33:14-15
[14]Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
[15]If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Who is Jesus? The redeemer of the faith.

 

[GiftofGod23]

Jesus separates works of God. From the works of men.

 

[studier]

I agree with a lot of that but I bristle at the suggestion that works will follow faith as if it's unstoppable outcome of faith

Why?

 

[GiftofGod23]

When an athethiest does a good work. He still has prejudice heart and a lost mind. And is doing a work for himself.
But when doing the work of faith, it is towards life, with love for all Gods creation. Not doing a work for a person because you like this kind of person or thats the person you chose to help.
But the work of faith being able to bring a dead spirit to life. A lost mind into understanding and be charitable and have brotherly love and companionship. These are works of faith. And Jesus said all other works are dead.

 

[Nedsk]

Ezekiel 33:14-15
[14]Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
[15]If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Who is Jesus? The redeemer of the faith.

Wow that was hacked up huh? I read where it says "...and they commit no wrongful acts...." and that seems to contradict what you said earlier. Why would anyone with faith need to be warned off committing wrongful acts? Why would they need to be spurred on to do good works like Paul says in Hebrews?

 

[Nedsk]

Jesus separates works of God. From the works of men.

Not on judgement day ..Matt 25: 31-46

 

[Nedsk]

Why?

Because that's not what Scripture suggests

 

[Soyeong]

Acts15:5&6 does not concern ''unclean'' It concerns what was being debated at the Jerusalem council

I did not claim that it did. They were debating whether salvation is by grace (Acts 15:11) or by circumcision (Acts 15:1), not whether followers of Christ should follow Christ.

 

[GiftofGod23]

Because we are still in the world. Thats why they all say to have courage and to help each other and to reason and exhort with each other. To be part of the true religion. James 1:27
[27]Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
So the faith and the religion is the same. A religion is a practice. And we practice to work correctly.. so none of it contradicts.

 

[GiftofGod23]

Matthew 25:41-44
[41]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[43]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[44]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

These are those that did not have the faith, works, or the love of Christ.