Faith or Law?

[TMS]

A lawless world is a world of confussion, and a world of evil sin.

No road rules = chaos and disorder = suffering and death.

God is a God of order and lawlessness is not how God rules the universe.

God does not turn gravity on and off
God does not give perfect laws to define sin then change them.

Sin is lawlessness. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Murder is sin
Adultery is sin

It is clear that sin is defined by the law.

Righteousness is seen as not sinning

We have righteousness imputed but also imparted to us by Jesus.

This is sinlessness = a law obeying life.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If God commanded to do something and the Jerusalem Council said to not do what God commanded, then who has the higher authority and which one should we follow?

This makes it obvious you should do a study of what a covenant is and what and who it involves

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God never made that covenant with anyone but the descendants of Jacob ( tribes of isreal ) and anyone among them who converted through circumcision and strict adherence to the law of moses..

moses didn’t lead we the people out of Egypt he didn’t oart the seas he wasn’t made the mediator of our covenant he didn’t spend fourty days in the Mount and then come tell us what God said … ect that was the old covenant made between God and the children of Israel after he delivered them from Egypt while they toiled in the desert.

Jesus is our lord and savior he came to deliver us from sin and death and its bondage . As Moses had them from Egypts bondage. Jesus spent fourty days fasting in the wilderness and then began preaching to mankind the gospel the word of the living God and his promises everlasting covenent. Just as Moses fasted fourty says soent on the Mount and then told the people their covenant word from the lord.

The New Testament and Christ is the reality the Old Testament and Moses was the pattern for them then before they broke and made thier covenant desolate and a curse ……

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:26-28‬ ‭


“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should definately accept the apostles judgements they were filled with the same spirit as Jesus and were chosen by him to accomplish also empowered by him given authority ect ect

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Gentiles are not under the law.

Thus, a Gentile does not recognize that sin is transgression of the law.

Paul used a different definition of sin for the Gentiles.

Paul called sin the deeds of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery,
enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness,
carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

See Soyeong, you have assumed that Gentiles were under the law when they never were.

many converted even after they just like many now don’t understand what it means you have to obey the entirety of Moses law

The apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ beforehand and appointed and empowered given revelation in order to make those judgements by his spirit for the church


“Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭27:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:3-4‬ ‭

I’m guessing those arguing for the law have never actually read the entire law or the elements and cirses aboit trying to remove or add even a single word .

Gentiles can convert to Moses law if they choose to but they should instead convert to Christianity as should any isralite who wants to inherit gods promises Jesus is the sole hier

 

[Soyeong]

Gentiles are not under the law.

Thus, a Gentile does not recognize that sin is transgression of the law.

Paul used a different definition of sin for the Gentiles.

Paul called sin the deeds of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery,
enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness,
carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

See Soyeong, you have assumed that Gentiles were under the law when they never were.

Gentiles as required to refrain from sin (Romans 6:15) and it is by the Law of God that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20). Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits such as with unrighteousness being sin and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4) because it was given in order to teach us how to embody His character traits, which are also the fruits of the Spirit, and which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a singles example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God. Christians should have the goal of being like Christ and of knowing him and God through following his example embodying His character traits regardless of whether we have any obligation to do so.

 

[Nedsk]

Yes, I'm saying when we read all the verses that speak of work(s) and works of law, some of the mentions of work(s) can seem a bit vague as to whether works of law is or is not the referent of works. It's been a few years since I last looked at it closely and that restudy included all verses using "work(s)" and my reading a few hundred page discussion of the topic in a book I had and maybe still have.

If they are the same then a conflict exists. Paul is adamant that works of law are not specific. Romans 3:27 and 28. Then again Galatians 2:16 and 3:10.

But at the same time James 2:24 tells us we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James tells us faith without works is useless. Paul himself even suggests works are salvific. 2 Cor 5:10; Hebrews 10:24, 13:16; Romans 2:7; 1 Timothy 6:18; Titus 3:14.

If they are the same why would Paul say they aren't salvific but then encourage people to be attentive to good works? He's either schizophrenic or he is talking about two different things. With all due respect when I hear people say I need to "study it" I take that to mean, "I need find a way to make the scriptures agree with my position." The words are rather clear and decisive.

 

[Soyeong]

This makes it obvious you should do a study of what a covenant is and what and who it involves

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God never made that covenant with anyone but the descendants of Jacob ( tribes of isreal ) and anyone among them who converted through circumcision and strict adherence to the law of moses..

moses didn’t lead we the people out of Egypt he didn’t oart the seas he wasn’t made the mediator of our covenant he didn’t spend fourty days in the Mount and then come tell us what God said … ect that was the old covenant made between God and the children of Israel after he delivered them from Egypt while they toiled in the desert.

Jesus is our lord and savior he came to deliver us from sin and death and its bondage . As Moses had them from Egypts bondage. Jesus spent fourty days fasting in the wilderness and then began preaching to mankind the gospel the word of the living God and his promises everlasting covenent. Just as Moses fasted fourty says soent on the Mount and then told the people their covenant word from the lord.

The New Testament and Christ is the reality the Old Testament and Moses was the pattern for them then before they broke and made thier covenant desolate and a curse ……

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:26-28‬ ‭


“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our goal should be to know God and Jesus by embodying His character traits regardless of which covenant someone is under, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). God's character traits are eternal, so there is a reality of what is true about God's character traits that was true before God made any covenants with man that all of God's covenants teach us about that is eternally and cumulatively valid. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to embody His righteousness are eternally and cumulatively valid (Psalms 119:160). Being a doer of charity was a way to embody God's righteousness before He made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under. If our goal is to know God by embodying His character traits, then we will consider all of the instructions that God has given for how to do that as part of the Mosaic Covenant to be valid even if that covenant was not made with us.

Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits such as with unrighteousness being sin and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4) because it was given in order to teach us how to embody His character traits. Sin was in the world before the law, was given (Romans 5:13) so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always been the way to embody God's character traits. Jesus saves us from our sin (1 Matthew 1:21), so him graciously teaching us to embody God's character traits in obedience to the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not embodying them. If someone had no obligation to refrain from dong what is contrary to God's charter traits, then they would have no need for a Savior.

We should definately accept the apostles judgements they were filled with the same spirit as Jesus and were chosen by him to accomplish also empowered by him given authority ect ect

While I agree with that, there are certain interpretations of what said that should lead us to conclude either that we must have incorrectly interpreted or that we must have been incorrect to consider them to be servants of God, such as with interpreting them as speaking against obeying what God has command. God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, or in other words, it is God's instructions for how to bear the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). So if the Apostles had spoken against following God's instructions for how to bear the fruits of the Spirit, then that would clearly indicate that we were incorrect to consider them to be filled with the Spirit and if the Apostles were filled with the Spirit, then that would clearly indicate that it is we are incorrect to interpret them as speaking against following God's instructions for how to bear the fruits of the Spirit, but there is not room for someone to insist both that the Apostles were filled with the Spirit and that they should be interpreted as speaking against following God's instructions for how to bear the fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Nedsk]

Your argument merges categories Scripture keeps distinct. James never defines works as part of the essence of faith; he explicitly speaks of ""faith by itself"" & then contrasts it with the works that demonstrate it (Ja 2:17 & 2:24). If works were built into faith’s definition, James could not speak of faith existing ""by itself.""

Paul makes the same distinction: we are ""justified by faith apart from works"" (Rom 3:28), yet we are ""created in Christ Jesus for good works"" (Eph 2:10). Works are the result of salvation, not the cause or component of it.

Your appeal to Romans 1:5 & 16:26 overlooks the fact that Paul is describing obedience that arises from faith, not obedience that is identical to faith. Romans 10:16 does not redefine faith as obedience; it simply shows that unbelief is disobedience to the gospel's call. Philippians 2:12–13 likewise describes believers expressing outwardly what God has already worked inwardly, not accomplishing salvation by cooperative effort & 1 John 3:23 lists believing & loving as 2 distinct commands that flow from new birth (1 Jn 5:1).

Scripture consistently presents faith as the root & obedience as its fruit. When those categories are merged, grace no longer produces works - works end up redefining grace

The issue isn't whether faith can be examined - Scripture clearly says we can test ourselves (2 Cor 13:5). The issue is the assumption that works are intrinsic to the substance of faith itself. Paul's use of ""genuine faith"" in 1 Timothy 1:5 & 2 Timothy 1:5 refers to sincerity, not composition. He is describing the quality of Timothy's trust, not redefining faith as a mixture of belief & works.

James likewise distinguishes ""faith by itself" from the works that reveal it (Ja 2:17). If works were part of faith's essence, James could not speak of faith existing ""by itself"" at all. Works make faith visible, but they do not make faith what it is. God alone sees the heart perfectly (1 Sam 16:7), but the fruit of faith can be observed - not because works are faith, but because works flow from faith (Eph 2:10). When works are treated as intrinsic to faith, the biblical categories of root & fruit collapse, turning evidence into essence & shifting the ground of assurance from Christ's finished work to our performance.

You're being disingenuous about the romans 3:28 passage, Paul is referring to works "of the law" not works. You left out, "of the law".

Works are not a result of salvation they complete faith as james tells us and faith completed by world is salvific. If faith alone was suffice it wouldn't need competition

 

[markss]

So how can the Mosaic Law that contains the greatest two commandments be exceeded by them? How can love not be inclusive of all of everything else in the Mosaic Law that Go gave for how to love?

In the Law, Israel was commanded to "love others as you love yourself".

Jesus said, I give you a new commandment, "love others" - that's not new - as I have loved you." That part is new.

And let me ask you . . . is the love we have greater or lesser than the love Jesus has? I think the answer must be plain!

Much love!

 

[Soyeong]

many converted even after they just like many now don’t understand what it means you have to obey the entirety of Moses law

The apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ beforehand and appointed and empowered given revelation in order to make those judgements by his spirit for the church


“Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭27:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This does not leave room for the option for someone to avoid being cursed by refusing to obey everything that God has commanded.

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law and the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. The fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that the way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law and that all of those who rely on works on the law instead of continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law come under that curse.

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep the Law of God, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to obey the Law of God more consistently.

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:3-4‬ ‭

God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:3-4 as Paul warning us against obeying God and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we repent and believe the Gospel of Christ. In Psalm 119:29-30, he anted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and it would again be absurd to interpret this as him wanting God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace. We can't earn our justification even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), which makes it that much more true that we can't earn our justification by obeying man-made works of the law.

I’m guessing those arguing for the law have never actually read the entire law or the elements and cirses aboit trying to remove or add even a single word .

Or it is possible that those who are promoting obedience to the Law of God have read the Bible and don't think that servants of God should be interpreted as warning against obeying what He has commanded.

Gentiles can convert to Moses law if they choose to but they should instead convert to Christianity as should any isralite who wants to inherit gods promises Jesus is the sole hier

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and Christianity is about following what Christ taught, not about refusing to follow him. It is contradictory to follow God's Word made flesh instead of following his example of embodying God's Word.

 

[Soyeong]

In the Law, Israel was commanded to "love others as you love yourself".

Jesus said, I give you a new commandment, "love others" - that's not new - as I have loved you." That part is new.

And let me ask you . . . is the love we have greater or lesser than the love Jesus has? I think the answer must be plain!

Much love!

In order to correctly know how to obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves we need to know how we should love ourselves and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Christ loves us, which is therefore also how we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. So Jesus wasn't sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to the law, but rather he was fulfilling the law by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. What was new was not the command to love our neighbor but the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness with respect to quality rather than with respect to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

 

[markss]

. What was new was not the command to love our neighbor but the quality of the example by which we are to love our neighbor,

Exaclty! A much higher standard.

Much love!

 

[Soyeong]

Exaclty! A much higher standard.

Much love!

If we love ourselves as Christ loves us, then loving our neighbor as Christ loves us is not doing something other than loving our neighbor as we love ourselves.

 

[FlyingDove]

You're being disingenuous about the romans 3:28 passage, Paul is referring to works "of the law" not works. You left out, "of the law".

Works are not a result of salvation they complete faith as james tells us and faith completed by world is salvific. If faith alone was suffice it wouldn't need competition

You're right that Romans 3:28 says ""works of the law,"" but that doesn't help your case, it sharpens Paul's. He's not denying that faith produces works; he's denying that any works (including Mosaic ones) are the ground of justification: ""to the one who does not work but believes - his faith is counted for righteousness"" (Rom 4:5). That's not ""no law‑works but yes other‑works""; that's no works as the basis of justification

James doesn't contradict that—he exposes fake, non‑saving ""faith by itself"" (Jas 2:17), then shows that real faith is completed (brought to its intended expression) by works, not constituted by them: ""faith was working with his works & by works faith was perfected"" (Jas 2:22). The faith is already there; works bring it to maturity & visibility. If works were part of faith’s essence, James couldn't speak of ""faith by itself"" at all.

So the categories stand:
Paul: justified by faith apart from works of the law (Rom 3:28; 4:5).
James: the faith that justifies is never alone; it shows itself by works (Jas 2:18, 22, 24)

Works don't make faith salvific; they show that the faith is the real, God‑given kind. Root & fruit stay distinct.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Someone being a doer of something is about direction, not about perfection. For example, a courageous person is by definition a doer of courageous works. Does someone need to have been perfectly courageous in every aspect of their lives in order to be considered to courageous? No, but courageousness characterizes their behavior and if there are instances when they have not acted courageously, then they repent and have the goal of being courageous the next time that they have the opportunity to do so. Abraham was still considered to be righteous even though he did not always act righteously. The Law of Moses came with instructions for what to do when His children sinned, so someone could continue to be a doer of it by repenting in accordance with those instructions even though they have not had sinless obedience to it. Likewise, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, none of the people who kept God's commandments in Revelation 14:12 had sinless obedience to them, but that they were people who had the goal of living in obedience to them who repented when they did not.

This is what you said before:

• Paul affirmed that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous,
• We become... someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses,
• Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments,
• Those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

But you are now modyfying it as follows:

• Paul affirmed that only the doers of ones who want to do the Law of Moses and repent when they disobey will be declared righteous,
• We become... someone who is wants to be a doer of the Law of Moses and repents when we disobey,
• Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying wanting to obey the greatest two commandments and repenting when they disobey them,
• Those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept wanted to keep God's commandments and repented when they disobey.

I can get behind that modification because we become new creatures when Jesus comes to live in our hearts and having been joined to the Lord we are now one spirit with Him (Eph 4:24, 1 Cor 6:17). We now love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves and we detest sin, and we surrender to His correction when fail to do as He pleases (Heb 12).

Why not lead with that instead of pointing to obedience to the law as the key to having eternal life?

 

[Dino246]

Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits

That is not in Scripture.

Christians should have the goal of being like Christ and of knowing him and God through following his example embodying His character traits regardless of whether we have any obligation to do so.

That is self-contradictory.

 

[Dino246]

This is what you said before:

• Paul affirmed that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous,
• We become... someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses,
• Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments,
• Those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

But you are now modyfying it as follows:

• Paul affirmed that only the doers of ones who want to do the Law of Moses and repent when they disobey will be declared righteous,
• We become... someone who is wants to be a doer of the Law of Moses and repents when we disobey,
• Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying wanting to obey the greatest two commandments and repenting when they disobey them,
• Those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept wanted to keep God's commandments and repented when they disobey.

I can get behind that modification because we become new creatures when Jesus comes to live in our hearts and having been joined to the Lord we are now one spirit with Him (Eph 4:24, 1 Cor 6:17). We now love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves and we detest sin, and we surrender to His correction when fail to do as He pleases (Heb 12).

Why not lead with that instead of pointing to obedience to the law as the key to having eternal life?

Bear in mind that Soyeong is a false teacher. He does not understand the new covenant in Jesus Christ and actively tries to undermine it.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

It's not clear to me why you are actings as if repentance isn't a thing.

I'm not acting like that. It seems like we are on the same page now that you have clarified that being a doer of the law of Moses means we want ot obey God, but we don't always do it, and we repent when He corrects us when we go astray.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God but not in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

According to Deuteronomy 28-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law means that the only way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why those who rely on "works of the law" instead come under that curse.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith without a quote form Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of Moses will attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2:4 does not treat the righteous living by faith as being an alternative way of living that is not in obedience to the Law of Moses. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of Moses, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses is righteous even as they are righteous, so again the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Law of Moses, but rather it is describing the way that the righteous live in obedience to it through faith.

We can do works for a variety of reasons such as in order to earn a wage or in order to show our faith (James 2:18), so the significance of our works in regard to salvation is not that they are what we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result, but other the significance is that they are the way to embody our faith and it is by that faith alone that we are declared righteous and are being saved.

It does seem like there continues to be unreconciled differences in our doctrines. Maybe they are reconcilable. I don't know.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Bear in mind that Soyeong is a false teacher. He does not understand the new covenant in Jesus Christ and actively tries to undermine it.

Dealing with him is certainly a challenge. But at least now he has admitted that obeying the law is not enough on its own to get people into heaven and that repentance is required to bridge the gaps. Now, if we can just get him to see that forgiveness (not repentance) is what bridges the gap between our performance and what is required of us under the law, then he might be able to overcome his misconceptions.

 

[studier]

If they are the same then a conflict exists. Paul is adamant that works of law are not specific. Romans 3:27 and 28. Then again Galatians 2:16 and 3:10.

But at the same time James 2:24 tells us we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James tells us faith without works is useless. Paul himself even suggests works are salvific. 2 Cor 5:10; Hebrews 10:24, 13:16; Romans 2:7; 1 Timothy 6:18; Titus 3:14.

If they are the same why would Paul say they aren't salvific but then encourage people to be attentive to good works? He's either schizophrenic or he is talking about two different things. With all due respect when I hear people say I need to "study it" I take that to mean, "I need find a way to make the scriptures agree with my position." The words are rather clear and decisive.

I think we're kind of talking past one another. In my original response to you, I simply responded to what you said re: "works of law" being the same as "works" - that it depends upon the verse. An example of this may be Rom3:27 law of works vs. law of faith, Rom3:28 "works of law", then into Rom4 where Paul simply uses the word "work(s)" to speak of them negatively in regards to being declared righteousness.

In these verses I see "work(s)" and "works of law" and "law of works" all essentially being used to speak of the same thing.

Apart from this type of context, "works of law" and "works" may not be the same thing and "works of law" is not the same as "good works" that believers were recreated to do in faith-obedience. I also don't see "works of law" being the same as "working to accomplish the good vs. the bad/evil" in Rom2. Nor do I see good works as being the dead works repented from in Heb6:1 and the dead works mentioned in Heb9:14. Nor do I buy into the overreach of zero work in coming to initial faith-obedience to God and to His Son based upon Scripture like John6:27-29 and others in John6. IMO this zeal against "works" has become a circus far beyond the original concerns of the reformation era.

If I wrapped this up saying I see "good works" as a necessary part of our by grace salvation through faith, are you and I likely close?

 

[Soyeong]

This is what you said before:

• Paul affirmed that only the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous,
• We become... someone who is a doer of the Law of Moses,
• Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments,
• Those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

But you are now modyfying it as follows:

• Paul affirmed that only the doers of ones who want to do the Law of Moses and repent when they disobey will be declared righteous,
• We become... someone who is wants to be a doer of the Law of Moses and repents when we disobey,
• Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying wanting to obey the greatest two commandments and repenting when they disobey them,
• Those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept wanted to keep God's commandments and repented when they disobey.

I can get behind that modification because we become new creatures when Jesus comes to live in our hearts and having been joined to the Lord we are now one spirit with Him (Eph 4:24, 1 Cor 6:17). We now love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves and we detest sin, and we surrender to His correction when fail to do as He pleases (Heb 12).

Someone who is a courageous is a doer of courageous works by definition, so they do not just want to do them, but rather that trait characterizes their works. Someone does not need to be perfectly courageous in oder for that trait to characterize their works, otherwise there is no one who would be courageous, but someone being courageous is more than just them wanting to be courageous. Likewise, someone does not need to have sinless obedience to the Law of Moses in order for it to characterize their works, but being a doer of the Law of Moses is more than just wanting to obey it. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by living in obedience to the Law of Moses and Christianity is about being made to be like Christ through embodying His character traits in accordance with following his example, not about having sinless obedience or about just wanting to be like him.

Why not lead with that instead of pointing to obedience to the law as the key to having eternal life?

The Bible repeatedly says things along the lines that they to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments (Luke 10:25-28) or that Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him (Hebrews 5:9).