Faith or Law?

[James456]

But you don't think that God should be trusted to guide you in how to rightly through His law?

I think the people Christ handpicked can be trusted to let us know what is required concerning this subject

 

[Soyeong]

I think the people Christ handpicked can be trusted to let us know what is required concerning this subject

Do you think that God should be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live through His law?

 

[James456]

Do you think that God should be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live through His law?

God gave us people to explain the message to us, if you do not believe them, why read the NT? I told you, just stick with the old, they were under the law and all of Torah had to be followed. Perfect for you

 

[markss]

Do you think that God should be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live through His law?

I do.

Jesus gave us two commandments, to believe in Him, and to love others. In so doing, you will far surpass the requirements of the Law that God gave to Israel as His covenant with them at Mt. Horeb.

As a gentile, I never was under the Law of the Covenant between God and Israel. And as a Christian, I'm dead to the Law regardless. I'm under the Law of Love, which is a higher Law then the Mosaic Covenant.

Much love!

 

[Soyeong]

God gave us people to explain the message to us, if you do not believe them, why read the NT? I told you, just stick with the old, they were under the law and all of Torah had to be followed. Perfect for you

Please answer my question.

I believe the NT, I just don't think that it should be interpreted as speaking against following what God has commanded. A house divided against itself cannot stand. If the Apostles spoke against following God and God therefore spoke against following the Apostles, then you should follow God instead of the Apostles. However, the reality is that the Apostles were servants of God who therefore never spoke against following what He has commanded.

 

[James456]

Please answer my question.
.

Ive answered your question twice

 

[Soyeong]

Ive answered your question twice

I asked you a yes or no question that you avoided responding yes or no to twice.

 

[James456]

I asked you a yes or no question that you avoided responding yes or no to twice.

I haven't avoided responding at all. Im under the new covenant, I was never under the old one. And in the new covenant era the people handpicked by Christ settled this matter

 

[Soyeong]

I do.

Jesus gave us two commandments, to believe in Him, and to love others. In so doing, you will far surpass the requirements of the Law that God gave to Israel as His covenant with them at Mt. Horeb.

As a gentile, I never was under the Law of the Covenant between God and Israel. And as a Christian, I'm dead to the Law regardless. I'm under the Law of Love, which is a higher Law then the Mosaic Covenant.

Much love!

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not giving us commandments, but rather he was speaking about which commandment is the greatest, which implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest. The greatest two commandments are part of the Law of Moses, so following those commandments can't surpass it. Everything in the Law of Moses is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so it is the Law of Love and the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, idolatry, murder, theft, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Law of Moses. The way to love God is by obeying the Law of Moses regardless of whether or not you are under it. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of Moses, not the other way around.

 

[Soyeong]

I haven't avoided responding at all. Im under the new covenant, I was never under the old one. And in the new covenant era the people handpicked by Christ settled this matter

If you are not avoiding it, then you can give a simply yes or no answer to the question, but if you refuse to do that, then you are clearly avoiding it. I have not been suggesting that you should be under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about the way to live under the New Covenant.

In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying what He has commanded, so if you think that the Jerusalem Council did that, then you should be opposed to following what they said, but if you think that they were handpicked by Christ, then you should be opposed to interpreting them as speaking against following Christ's example.

 

[markss]

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not giving us commandments, but rather he was speaking about which commandment is the greatest, which implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest.

Remember that Jesus was teaching those who were under that covenant.

1 John 3:21-24 KJV
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

This commandment of faith and love, I see it as far exceeding the requirements of the OT Law. The Law commands we don't steal, love leads us to give to others. Isn't it all like that? What Law in the OT, or even in the commands in the Gospels, is not exceeded by the Law of Love?

Not to mention, there are a number of commands in the Bible, that were given to Israel, that simply are not possible to be kept today, such as the tithe, and the offerings (not sin, but the peace offerings, fellowship offerings, like that). There are no levites, there is no temple, the Law cannot be kept.

But if you fulfill the Law of Love, you will do all that God intends for you. To my understanding, trying to keep the Mosaic Law is like leaving college to return to elementary school. But God wants us to move into maturity. That isn't by keeping the Law:

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Much love!

 

[Dino246]

God has given instructions to Israel for how to know, love, glorify, believe in, and testify about Him by walking in His way, so if you want to do those things, then you will follow his instructions for how to them, but if you don't, then you can continue to argue against following them.

Note the bold portion.

These "instructions" (actually, commands) were given to ISRAEL, not to gentiles.

For those of us who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, we are not under the supervision of the law (Galatians 3:24).

 

[Dino246]

But you don't think that God should be trusted to guide you in how to rightly through His law?

He has a better plan.

Psalm 23:3b He guides me in the paths of righteousness for the sake of His name.

How does He do this? By His Spirit, not by the Law.

 

[Soyeong]

Remember that Jesus was teaching those who were under that covenant.

In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the Gentiles everything that he taught them, so everything that the Bible teaches is cumulative.

1 John 3:21-24 KJV
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

This commandment of faith and love, I see it as far exceeding the requirements of the OT Law. The Law commands we don't steal, love leads us to give to others. Isn't it all like that? What Law in the OT, or even in the commands in the Gospels, is not exceeded by the Law of Love?

Here is where the greatest two commandments are found in the Mosaic Law:

Deuteronomy 6:4-7 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

So how can the Mosaic Law that contains the greatest two commandments be exceeded by them? How can love not be inclusive of all of everything else in the Mosaic Law that Go gave for how to love?

Not to mention, there are a number of commands in the Bible, that were given to Israel, that simply are not possible to be kept today, such as the tithe, and the offerings (not sin, but the peace offerings, fellowship offerings, like that). There are no levites, there is no temple, the Law cannot be kept.

No single person has been required to obey all of the 613 laws and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. The Israelites were give a number of laws while they were wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land...", so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that don't have their conditions met. When the Israelites were exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple, then the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to the Mosaic Law, so when there are laws in regard to Temple practice that don't have their conditions met, then we should nevertheless be faithful to obey the laws that we can obey.

But if you fulfill the Law of Love, you will do all that God intends for you. To my understanding, trying to keep the Mosaic Law is like leaving college to return to elementary school. But God wants us to move into maturity. That isn't by keeping the Law:

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Much love!

Even if you have moved on to a higher standard than the Mosaic Law, then that at the very leads is inclusive of it. For example, moving someone on to calculus does not involve disregarding what they learned in elementary school about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. We can't love my moving on from following God's instructions for how to love.

 

[BBerean]

The truth is it is about obeying the law to be saved.

It is required of us to abstain from sin and obey the law.

For we have to deny sin to be saved.

We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.

But then we have to allow the Spirit to lead us to abstain from sin to obey the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual.

We do not void out the law by faith but we live up to the law by obeying the law.

Which the law is spiritual, holy just, and good.

Which are the moral laws, laws of love.

Which are to always to be obeyed and if not then no salvation.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If a person does not obey the law abstaining from sin there is no salvation.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Paul said the Galatians received the Spirit by faith when they were saved.

But then rebuked them because they went back to things of the flesh not obeying the truth.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and obey the law.

Therefore they are not under the law for they are abstaining from sin obeying the law so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them and love sin more than God.

And do not come to the truth.

They say faith alone and we cannot abstain from sin.

Which means they are sinning and thinking they still have salvation.

And do not come to the truth.

It is about obeying the law and abstaining from sin to be saved.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, and obey the law.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Well said ! The Holy Spirit never breaks the law , breaking the law is sin . Being lead by the Holy Spirit is the real victory. And to such there is a law of liberty. But not a liberty to sin , a liberty to love God . I find prayer often is essential, or we can as Jesus say fall into temptation. Reading the word of God refreshes our mind and keeps us in tune with the Holy Spirit , the word of God is inspired by the Holy Spirit so meditation on the word refreshes us in the Holy Spirit . Greatly helps me , praying for one another is very helpful too ! We get blessed by our prayers for others and they do as well . We can have an attitude of prayer as well . Just a few thoughts to pass along …

 

[Dino246]

In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the Gentiles everything that he taught them, so everything that the Bible teaches is cumulative.

That does not follow.

we should nevertheless be faithful to obey the laws that we can obey.

You can execute adulterers by stoning. Do you?

 

[James456]

If you are not avoiding it, then you can give a simply yes or no answer to the question, but if you refuse to do that, then you are clearly avoiding it. I have not been suggesting that you should be under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about the way to live under the New Covenant.

In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying what He has commanded, so if you think that the Jerusalem Council did that, then you should be opposed to following what they said, but if you think that they were handpicked by Christ, then you should be opposed to interpreting them as speaking against following Christ's example.

Lets put it another way, God has not instructed me to obey all of Torah, for the law is within us as christians, and that law is instinctively known for it is in our hearts and minds. But im afraid, you can only understand a covenant that can be understood without the indwelling Holy Spirit

 

[BBerean]

You bring up a good point about the Law , the penalty for breaking the laws are not enforced these days . We live in lawless times . Adultery is excepted largely as ok in most of society! So you could say we live in an adulterous times , like Jesus said to the people in his time . Perhaps worse now . Jesus forgave the woman caught in the act of adultery and presented to him by some of the religious people of that time . She acknowledged her sin by calling Jesus Lord and he out of compassion forgave her and said Go and sin no more . Yes we live in lawlessness times according to Gods law .

 

[Dino246]

You bring up a good point about the Law , the penalty for breaking the laws are not enforced these days . We live in lawless times . Adultery is excepted largely as ok in most of society! So you could say we live in an adulterous times , like Jesus said to the people in his time . Perhaps worse now . Jesus forgave the woman caught in the act of adultery and presented to him by some of the religious people of that time . She acknowledged her sin by calling Jesus Lord and he out of compassion forgave her and said Go and sin no more . Yes we live in lawlessness times according to Gods law .

It's helpful for everyone if you use the "REPLY" button at the lower right of each post. That way, every reader can see to whom you're responding.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so there is a direct connection between our gift of salvation and being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to figure out what that is and is not.

Gentiles are not under the law.

Thus, a Gentile does not recognize that sin is transgression of the law.

Paul used a different definition of sin for the Gentiles.

Paul called sin the deeds of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery,
enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness,
carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

See Soyeong, you have assumed that Gentiles were under the law when they never were.