everything is predestined?

[Blain]

everything is predestined yes but not how we think of predestination. God ordained in particular the jeweish feast days as prophetic time markers he predistined the kingdom to come through Jesus Cgrist the son of God he predistined that the word would be spread throughout the whole world and that the end would come as he said it would.

But as for his children he does not predestine the choices we make to follow or ignore from him, he leaves us with the ability to make our own choices he does not condemn some from birth and others not because he is our father and a father would not in their right minds condemn one of his children to hell and others not that is not a loving father that is a tyrant

we have to take on the mindset of a parent because while he is God he is first father

 

[Jimbone]

The surprise and disappointment and grief God demonstrates in scripture over what humans do does not fit with someone who knows all the buttons and what they will cause to be done when pushed.

Does it fit with a God who knows His creations intimately and knows how to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations. To take this to mean God is limited is just silliness to me, but the thing is I KNOW Him, I'm connected to Him every second of every day now. I KNOW the power of our God firsthand like everyone who has been born-again. That is one of the glaring problems with the way you and the crew look at every single issue. You degrade and minimize Gods power and lift up the importance of our decisions and actions as if we get credit or glory at all based on our own power.

I actually understand why too. Every argument you make and point of veiw you take I've held before and thought of the same way. I held these kinds of views when I only thought I was saved and was still blind to the truth of the Spirit. This is not a "dig" or insult, I pray you understand that I'm not trying to be judgmental or "look down my nose" at you here. I'm not even trying to win a debate here; I'm testifying to you that there is SO MUCH MORE to God and His power than you seem to know and that you defiantly don't proclaim here, not that I ever read. That's the thing about salvation, the Spirit is not something we can know before Got grants us a rebirth, being born again in Spirit.

It's obvious to me from how often you're here and talk about these things that you love God, that He is drawing you in. You also come across as well read and well versed in scripture. I KNOW that when I "thought I was saved", but wasn't, I didn't care about any of this stuff at all really. I wasn't on websites or trying to argue theology. I liked the "Idea" of Jesus but had "real life" to handle. Brother there is more to it than what we are born able to understand, and the positions you take and the way you see some of these things reminds me of how I thought then. I might just be how God is drawing you in to grant you true repentance and giving you a whole new perspective.

I know I'm being very presumptuous here, and I know that I don't know about anyone's salvation status, this is not what I'm doing here. If I am wrong then I apologize to you and hope you will at least understand where I'm coming from, but I want to be clear that I am not saying if you are saved or not. I understand that is not something we can know about anyone else, I just really felt led to share this simple thing with you and testify a bit of how His power changed me in real time, in real life, and a lot of your POV I read on here lines right up with my understanding before I was born again the way Jesus told Nicodemus we must be.

 

[Cameron143]

The surprise and disappointment and grief God demonstrates in scripture over what humans do does not fit with someone who knows all the buttons and what they will cause to be done when pushed.

Because God uses antromorphisms to describe His actions so that we can better understand Him doesn't necessitate your conclusion. You seem predisposed to let them. Language is used for communication and effect. Why isn't God simply doing this? You don't actually believe Jesus is a Lamb do you? Using your logic, you must. But you don't.

You have spent considerable time and effort to get others to think outside the box of their own assumptions. Will you not make the effort yourself?

 

[NOV25]

God doesn’t know exactly what’s going to happen, he’s reacting and changing tactics as he learns what man is doing…
Synergists lol 😂

Your soteriology has you openly denying God’s omniscience, man’s sinfulness and the eternality of salvation all in one week. And you wonder why we won’t find common ground with you, “for the sake of unity” 🤦‍♂️

 

[GWH]

Scripture says His sheep hear His voice... and that those who do not hear do not belong to God.

Of course then we have people claiming everyone hears when that is not Biblical at all. Nor is it historically factual as you pretend.

And others who say God is a tyrannical monster if He acts unilaterally.

And that He is unfair if He reveals Himself to you in ways that are personal to you.

There are many here who seem to hate what Scripture actually says. I know you support them.

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

Wouldn't a picture of an angry or scowling male figure be more appropriate with JN 8:43&47?

Did the Gentiles who were not appointed for eternal life rejoice?

 

[Blain]

Does it fit with a God who knows His creations intimately and knows how to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations. To take this to mean God is limited is just silliness to me, but the thing is I KNOW Him, I'm connected to Him every second of every day now. I KNOW the power of our God firsthand like everyone who has been born-again. That is one of the glaring problems with the way you and the crew look at every single issue. You degrade and minimize Gods power and lift up the importance of our decisions and actions as if we get credit or glory at all based on our own power.

I actually understand why too. Every argument you make and point of veiw you take I've held before and thought of the same way. I held these kinds of views when I only thought I was saved and was still blind to the truth of the Spirit. This is not a "dig" or insult, I pray you understand that I'm not trying to be judgmental or "look down my nose" at you here. I'm not even trying to win a debate here; I'm testifying to you that there is SO MUCH MORE to God and His power than you seem to know and that you defiantly don't proclaim here, not that I ever read. That's the thing about salvation, the Spirit is not something we can know before Got grants us a rebirth, being born again in Spirit.

It's obvious to me from how often you're here and talk about these things that you love God, that He is drawing you in. You also come across as well read and well versed in scripture. I KNOW that when I "thought I was saved", but wasn't, I didn't care about any of this stuff at all really. I wasn't on websites or trying to argue theology. I liked the "Idea" of Jesus but had "real life" to handle. Brother there is more to it than what we are born able to understand, and the positions you take and the way you see some of these things reminds me of how I thought then. I might just be how God is drawing you in to grant you true repentance and giving you a whole new perspective.

I know I'm being very presumptuous here, and I know that I don't know about anyone's salvation status, this is not what I'm doing here. If I am wrong then I apologize to you and hope you will at least understand where I'm coming from, but I want to be clear that I am not saying if you are saved or not. I understand that is not something we can know about anyone else, I just really felt led to share this simple thing with you and testify a bit of how His power changed me in real time, in real life, and a lot of your POV I read on here lines right up with my understanding before I was born again the way Jesus told Nicodemus we must be.

my friend you speak as one who has been exposed to God personally, knowing his power his glory his awesomeness you know all this don't you? I know I have tasted this myself and yes there is soooooo much more tp God so much more and yet most have no clue it is mind blowing the depth and wonder of him

 

[bluejean_bible]

I tend to believe everything happens because it suppose to happen. What are your guys thoughts on that?

God says all is predestined. All through his word this is so.

Read all of Isaiah 46.

"Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

 

[CS1]

No. Knowing that someone will do something before they do it, does not mean there is no genuinely free will. But knowing everything that everyone will do before they do it, does mean there is no genuinely free will.

Well, so you are saying God is limited in allowing one to have free will within the context of his All-Knowing Power? God can't do both?

 

[CS1]

False. God knowing the choices we will make, before we make them, does NOT mean God made us do them. This assertion is just so wrong it should be abandoned right away. This is the kind of false assertion is what the whole CDSC ideology is built on. These straw man assertions that you put forth like logical law are so easily destroyed by even a little scrutiny. Some call others arrogant for thinking they are Gods elect, but the idea that you get to just declare these things as truth as if you understand Gods ways, is the height of arrogance in my view.

I agree, I just wanted to hear what he would say about it. man in his fallen state cannot fully comprehend all that God is, and human rationale cannot limit God's ability to be, do, and perform as HE sees it.

 

[Magenta]

According to the Bible God is the creator of all things. If evil is a thing, does that make Him the Creator of all evil? So why would knowing all things have to include knowing even things that are not real?

Evil is a lack of good. Even with a lack of good in people, there are only so many things a person can do. Why wouldn't God know them? I wonder why you seek to limit God. In a chess game there are only so many moves to start out with... It is estimated there are between 10111 and 10123 positions (including illegal moves) in Chess. (If you rule out illegal moves that number drops dramatically to 1040 moves. Which is still a lot!). God knowing all possible moves does not mean He is forcing anyone to make any particular move at any point in time. But the number of choices do lessen over time. And God knows that too. It still does not mean the person has no choice in what moves to make... until there are none left. That is where you are in this discussion because you do not have a leg to stand on, even though I know you will disagree because that is your nature, to deny the obvious.

 

[Kroogz]

Evil is a lack of good. Even with a lack of good in people, there are only so many things a person can do. Why wouldn't God know them? I wonder why you seek to limit God. In a chess game there are only so many moves to start out with... It is estimated there are between 10111 and 10123 positions (including illegal moves) in Chess. (If you rule out illegal moves that number drops dramatically to 1040 moves. Which is still a lot!). God knowing all possible moves does not mean He is forcing anyone to make any particular move at any point in time. But the number of choices do lessen over time. And God knows that too. It still does not mean the person has no choice in what moves to make... until there are none left. That is where you are in this discussion because you do not have a leg to stand on, even though I know you will disagree because that is your nature, to deny the obvious.

I do like that analogy. Carry it out sister.

BUT.......We can never make the ultimate right move. Checkmate is impossible for humans.......According to calvie theology.

So it really isn't chess. It's game, set , match The possibility of winning is 0.

 

[PaulThomson]

Does it fit with a God who knows His creations intimately and knows how to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations. To take this to mean God is limited is just silliness to me, but the thing is I KNOW Him, I'm connected to Him every second of every day now. I KNOW the power of our God firsthand like everyone who has been born-again. That is one of the glaring problems with the way you and the crew look at every single issue. You degrade and minimize Gods power and lift up the importance of our decisions and actions as if we get credit or glory at all based on our own power.

I actually understand why too. Every argument you make and point of veiw you take I've held before and thought of the same way. I held these kinds of views when I only thought I was saved and was still blind to the truth of the Spirit. This is not a "dig" or insult, I pray you understand that I'm not trying to be judgmental or "look down my nose" at you here. I'm not even trying to win a debate here; I'm testifying to you that there is SO MUCH MORE to God and His power than you seem to know and that you defiantly don't proclaim here, not that I ever read. That's the thing about salvation, the Spirit is not something we can know before Got grants us a rebirth, being born again in Spirit.

It's obvious to me from how often you're here and talk about these things that you love God, that He is drawing you in. You also come across as well read and well versed in scripture. I KNOW that when I "thought I was saved", but wasn't, I didn't care about any of this stuff at all really. I wasn't on websites or trying to argue theology. I liked the "Idea" of Jesus but had "real life" to handle. Brother there is more to it than what we are born able to understand, and the positions you take and the way you see some of these things reminds me of how I thought then. I might just be how God is drawing you in to grant you true repentance and giving you a whole new perspective.

I know I'm being very presumptuous here, and I know that I don't know about anyone's salvation status, this is not what I'm doing here. If I am wrong then I apologize to you and hope you will at least understand where I'm coming from, but I want to be clear that I am not saying if you are saved or not. I understand that is not something we can know about anyone else, I just really felt led to share this simple thing with you and testify a bit of how His power changed me in real time, in real life, and a lot of your POV I read on here lines right up with my understanding before I was born again the way Jesus told Nicodemus we must be.

It is possible that we both know Him, but in various ways we misconstrue what He is like and how He operates.

It is ironic that you are arguing that God is communicating "His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations. "

And yet you are proposing characteristics and methods of God and that run counter to the words God chose to use to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations.

In order to arrive at a picture of God that matches yours, I need to overrule the obvious meaning of a multitude of biblical texts and replace them with meanings arrived at by proposing they are merely figures of speech (metaphr/anthropomorphisms, etc.) whose meanings are opposite to the sense an anthropomorphism ot metaphor would actually be implying.

E.g. "God repented of the evil He thought to do", as an anthropomorphism, would indicate that God had been intending to do one thing and changed His mind to do something else instead, in a similar way to how men have intentions and then change their minds an do something else. However, since God has a lot more data behind His decisions, his thinking and repenting is not exactly like ours.

The meaning many here would ascribe to ""God repented of the evil He thought to do", is that God is saying that he repented as an anthropomorphism to help us understand that because He is not a man he does not ever repent: the exact opposite of the expected sense one would draw from the text reading it as an anthropomorphism.

 

[PaulThomson]

Because God uses antromorphisms to describe His actions so that we can better understand Him doesn't necessitate your conclusion. You seem predisposed to let them. Language is used for communication and effect. Why isn't God simply doing this? You don't actually believe Jesus is a Lamb do you? Using your logic, you must. But you don't.

You have spent considerable time and effort to get others to think outside the box of their own assumptions. Will you not make the effort yourself?

And yet you are proposing characteristics and methods of God and that run counter to the words God chose to use to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations.

In order to arrive at a picture of God that matches yours, I need to overrule the obvious meaning of a multitude of biblical texts and replace them with meanings arrived at by proposing they are merely figures of speech (metaphr/anthropomorphisms, etc.) whose meanings are opposite to the sense an anthropomorphism ot metaphor would actually be implying.

E.g. "God repented of the evil He thought to do", as an anthropomorphism, would indicate that God had been intending to do one thing and changed His mind to do something else instead, in a similar way to how men have intentions and then change their minds an do something else. However, since God has a lot more data behind His decisions, his thinking and repenting is not exactly like ours.

The meaning many here would ascribe to ""God repented of the evil He thought to do", is that God is saying that he repented as an anthropomorphism to help us understand that because He is not a man he does not ever repent: the exact opposite of the expected sense one would draw from the text reading it as an anthropomorphism.

 

[PaulThomson]

Well, so you are saying God is limited in allowing one to have free will within the context of his All-Knowing Power? God can't do both?

Do you agree that God has the power and authority place limitations on what He will allow Himself to do in any particular world He created.

 

[Cameron143]

And yet you are proposing characteristics and methods of God and that run counter to the words God chose to use to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations.

In order to arrive at a picture of God that matches yours, I need to overrule the obvious meaning of a multitude of biblical texts and replace them with meanings arrived at by proposing they are merely figures of speech (metaphr/anthropomorphisms, etc.) whose meanings are opposite to the sense an anthropomorphism ot metaphor would actually be implying.

E.g. "God repented of the evil He thought to do", as an anthropomorphism, would indicate that God had been intending to do one thing and changed His mind to do something else instead, in a similar way to how men have intentions and then change their minds an do something else. However, since God has a lot more data behind His decisions, his thinking and repenting is not exactly like ours.

The meaning many here would ascribe to ""God repented of the evil He thought to do", is that God is saying that he repented as an anthropomorphism to help us understand that because He is not a man he does not ever repent: the exact opposite of the expected sense one would draw from the text reading it as an anthropomorphism.

You need do none of those things. You need only imagine that God is as the Bible reveals Him to be. Read Acts 2:23. God says that Jesus was delivered up through the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God as well as by the choices and actions of men. How can it be both?

 

[PaulThomson]

You need do none of those things. You need only imagine that God is as the Bible reveals Him to be. Read Acts 2:23. God says that Jesus was delivered up through the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God as well as by the choices and actions of men. How can it be both?

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Literal sense of the Greek words of Act 2:23
Him (τοῦτον), in/at the determinate counsel (τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ) and foreknowledge (καὶ προγνώσει) of God (τοῦ θεοῦ) given out/away/over (ἔκδοτον) - after receiving Him (λαβόντες, aorist participle) by means of/through wicked hands (διὰ χειρῶν ἀνόμων) after crucifying him (προσπήξαντες) you slew Him (ἀνείλετε, aorist active indicative).

English paraphrase of the sense of the Greek -

In the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God [Jesus of Nazareth] was given over to you. After receiving Him by the wicked hands [of Judas] [and] after nailing Him to a cross, you killed Him.

God is supremely powerful and supremely wise. He is able to determine things and bring them to pass by various means: by simply allowing people to follow their own wills where that does not interfere with His plans; or by reasoning with people and persuading them that cooperating with His plan is to their advantage; or by threatening them with dire consequences if they do not cooperate with His plan; or by cutting off all other possible routes so that they can only advance by fulfilling details of His plan.

God had intended and prophesied that He would hand over Messiah to the evil powers to do their will against Him. Many times the Jews had plotted to kill Jesus, and several times they had tried to kill him by throwing Him off a cliff, or by stoning him, but because the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God was that Jesus die in a specific manner, Jesus' invisible angelic bodyguard prevented the Jews from killing Him in other ways, and Jesus simply walked through the midst of His would be murderers. But the one way they could carry out their plan to murder Jesus that God left open to them was by crucifixion at the hands of the Gentiles. THis being the only avenue God left open for them, this was the path they took by their own free will.

This is how I understand that it was both. It was according to God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge as revealed in prophecy. AND it was by the willing choices and actions of men. God did not predetermine the specific choices and actions of specific men at the time He prophesied the Messiah. He determined some of the choices and actions that would lead to Messiah's death, and in real time He selected people who were already committed to those specific choices and actions, and reduced their evil options doen to the ones that he had prophesied would attend the death of Messiah.

 

[Jimbone]

It is possible that we both know Him, but in various ways we misconstrue what He is like and how He operates.

It is ironic that you are arguing that God is communicating "His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations. "

And yet you are proposing characteristics and methods of God and that run counter to the words God chose to use to communicate His messages and teachings in ways we as men can understand with our limitations.

In order to arrive at a picture of God that matches yours, I need to overrule the obvious meaning of a multitude of biblical texts and replace them with meanings arrived at by proposing they are merely figures of speech (metaphr/anthropomorphisms, etc.) whose meanings are opposite to the sense an anthropomorphism ot metaphor would actually be implying.

E.g. "God repented of the evil He thought to do", as an anthropomorphism, would indicate that God had been intending to do one thing and changed His mind to do something else instead, in a similar way to how men have intentions and then change their minds an do something else. However, since God has a lot more data behind His decisions, his thinking and repenting is not exactly like ours.

The meaning many here would ascribe to ""God repented of the evil He thought to do", is that God is saying that he repented as an anthropomorphism to help us understand that because He is not a man he does not ever repent: the exact opposite of the expected sense one would draw from the text reading it as an anthropomorphism.

It is possible we both know Him, of course, I hope I was clear in saying that I KNOW we cannot know other peoples salvation condition. However, I was stating that your understanding of the Spirit, and the things that the Spirit opens our eyes to the second we are born again, seems very off. They seem a LOT like how I thought when I was not born again in truth, but thought I was a Christian.

See you just say I'm contradicting "Gods nature", through the text, I guess, without demonstrating or articulating how, then go on to basically cite your superior knowledge of the text as your argument and proof I'm wrong.

The actual REAL LIFE supernatural part of salvation seems absent from your every argument and your understanding. Gods word, without His Spirit guiding us to all truth, is just opinion like everything else that comes from fallen man.

You have to be spiritually born again, have you been reborn? Do you understand what I mean when I say God really resurrects our dead spirit when we see "OUR WAY" for what it is in truth, and turn away from it? Because it really seems you are the one who misunderstands the true meaning. Just in the way you seem to feel that "you" are the source of obtaining the understanding, where as I KNOW for certain that God is the ONLY place this understanding can come from. Again this thinking you present made perfect sense in my head, before He opened my eyes to the TRUTH of the Spirit.

 

[Cameron143]

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Literal sense of the Greek words of Act 2:23
Him (τοῦτον), in/at the determinate counsel (τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ) and foreknowledge (καὶ προγνώσει) of God (τοῦ θεοῦ) given out/away/over (ἔκδοτον) - after receiving Him (λαβόντες, aorist participle) by means of/through wicked hands (διὰ χειρῶν ἀνόμων) after crucifying him (προσπήξαντες) you slew Him (ἀνείλετε, aorist active indicative).

English paraphrase of the sense of the Greek -

In the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God [Jesus of Nazareth] was given over to you. After receiving Him by the wicked hands [of Judas] [and] after nailing Him to a cross, you killed Him.

God is supremely powerful and supremely wise. He is able to determine things and bring them to pass by various means: by simply allowing people to follow their own wills where that does not interfere with His plans; or by reasoning with people and persuading them that cooperating with His plan is to their advantage; or by threatening them with dire consequences if they do not cooperate with His plan; or by cutting off all other possible routes so that they can only advance by fulfilling details of His plan.

God had intended and prophesied that He would hand over Messiah to the evil powers to do their will against Him. Many times the Jews had plotted to kill Jesus, and several times they had tried to kill him by throwing Him off a cliff, or by stoning him, but because the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God was that Jesus die in a specific manner, Jesus' invisible angelic bodyguard prevented the Jews from killing Him in other ways, and Jesus simply walked through the midst of His would be murderers. But the one way they could carry out their plan to murder Jesus that God left open to them was by crucifixion at the hands of the Gentiles. THis being the only avenue God left open for them, this was the path they took by their own free will.

This is how I understand that it was both. It was according to God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge as revealed in prophecy. AND it was by the willing choices and actions of men. God did not predetermine the specific choices and actions of specific men at the time He prophesied the Messiah. He determined some of the choices and actions that would lead to Messiah's death, and in real time He selected people who were already committed to those specific choices and actions, and reduced their evil options doen to the ones that he had prophesied would attend the death of Messiah.

I didn't say God predetermined the actions of men. But God knew what they would do by virtue of knowing how He created each one and set the bounds of their habitations.
History is under divine control. It is His story. And history is following a divine plan and following a divine timetable. He knows every atom He created He created, where they are, and what He created them for. He creates each day new and possibly each moment, as all things are upheld by the word of His power. He feeds and clothes and houses 8 billion people a day, and yet is still able to relate with each one personally. Indeed, how unsearchable are His ways.
In my opinion, you have made God more in our image than us in His. You place limits on the infinite.

 

[PaulThomson]

I didn't say God predetermined the actions of men. But God knew what they would do by virtue of knowing how He created each one and set the bounds of their habitations.
History is under divine control. It is His story. And history is following a divine plan and following a divine timetable. He knows every atom He created He created, where they are, and what He created them for. He creates each day new and possibly each moment, as all things are upheld by the word of His power. He feeds and clothes and houses 8 billion people a day, and yet is still able to relate with each one personally. Indeed, how unsearchable are His ways.
In my opinion, you have made God more in our image than us in His. You place limits on the infinite.

What you are saying is one way of interpreting the words of your proof text. I have explained another way of interpreting your proof text. Since there are at least two ways to interpret the text, it is no longer a proof text for your view.

 

[Cameron143]

What you are saying is one way of interpreting the words of your proof text. I have explained another way of interpreting your proof text. Since there are at least two ways to interpret the text, it is no longer a proof text for your view.

It is for me. I don't have to accept a view as legitimate simply because it exists.