Does the Last Day include the whole millennium?

[greenonions]

“the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:25; 22:5), which I think comes to earth at the beginning of the millennium”

The new Jerusalem comes down to the new earth after the judgement , ...

Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm guessing that you mean that Revelation 21:1 is chronologically after the Great White Throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that just as Revelation has multiple visions that are not all chronological, this is another chronological break. For example, I think angel that showed John the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:9 likely poured out his bowl not too long ago.

...the thousand year reign happens before that it’s a measure of time from Jesus death and resurrection when the first resurrection happened the promised resurrection of the first covenant

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The first resurrection in Rev. 20:4 includes people who were "beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands" (Rev. 20:4 NKJV). I don't think the OT saints were beheaded for their witness to Jesus. I don't think the beast and his image were worshiped before Jesus' death and resurrection. Many saints arose, but was it 1) all the OT saints? 2) did they resurrect like Lazarus and die later? Daniel Chapter 12 seems to put the time of resurrection loosely around the "time of trouble" (Dan. 12:1-2). Daniel himself would rest and arise to his inheritance at the end of the days (Dan. 12:13). I think the inheritance is the future kingdom of God. For these reasons, I don't think the events at Jesus' resurrection are the first resurrection in Rev. 20:4.

 

[GWH]

Nope - as far as I know, I have not missed a thing...

Are there some particular verses that you are thinking of?

Perhaps, I may be able to help you understand how they really do fit in with the rest of biblical eschatology...?

Well, unless I have forgotten, Paul's eschatology is found mainly in 1 Corinthians and 1&2 Thessalonians as follows:

TOP #112: When Christ comes again at the end, those who belong to him will be resurrected, thereby destroying death. [1Cor. 15:21-28] At this point Paul alludes to an apparent practice of baptizing for the dead (v.29), which is nowhere approved in the NT. He also mentions risking death continually because of assurance Christ is risen (v.30-32).

TOP #114: The resurrected body will be changed into a heavenly or immortal body. [1Cor. 15:35-54, Phil. 3:21] This transfiguration will happen in a flash (v.52).

TOP #213: The dead in Christ will rise first and be joined in the air by Christians who are living at that time. [1Thes. 4:13-18] Regarding the times and dates, “the end will come like a thief in the night” (1Thes. 5:1-4, cf. Matt. 24:36-44/TOJ #144), so the children of light (TOP #168) should be alert or ready rather than asleep or drunk (1Thes. 5:5-7).

TOP #222: Those unsaved will be punished with everlasting destruction and separation from the Lord on Judgment Day. [2Thes. 1:7-10] This passage elaborates a little on TOP #209.

TOP #223: The Day of the Lord will not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed, who will claim to be God and work counterfeit miracles. [2Thes. 2:1-10] This teaching adds to what was said regarding the Second Coming in 1Thes. (TOP #213). The reference to the temple must echo Matt. 24:15.

 

[GWH]

I dont over think it just one of my favorite things from the Bible to think about.

Yes, and you have a lot of company in that regard,
but although Rev is an interesting read,
understanding how the millenium jibes
with Paul's eschatology is problematic.
(We shall see if GaryA has figured it out :^)

 

[homwardbound]

“the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:25; 22:5), which I think comes to earth at the beginning of the millennium”

The new Jerusalem comes down to the new earth after the judgement , the thousand year reign happens before that it’s a measure of time from Jesus death and resurrection when the first resurrection happened the promised resurrection of the first covenant

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The thousand years represents the time period from that to the second resurrection promosed by our covenant when Jesus returns

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a kingdom in heaven where those who were redeemed from the ot reign with Christ since he rose and ascended

You can see here jesus is the man child born to rule with a rod of iron and is taken up to Gods throne . Notice after that happens a large group of people appear celebrating in his kingdom in heaven but another group dwelling on earth is given a woe and warned about satans war against them

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. ( mark 16:19)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. ( the saints of the ot who rose after Jesus did )

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”( New Testament believers )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 10-12, 17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People get hung up on trying to calculate how a thousand years figures in it just represents an estimate nonone very extended time period between when Jesus ascended to heavens throne and when he will return from there and gather the rest of his people

at he resurrection wouod hapoen in two stages once for each time Jesus appears

his first time he came the ots promised resurrection happened when he returns the one we are promised will happen

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:

Christ , the firstfruits; ( first resurrection )

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”( last resirrection )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22-23‬ ‭


The new Jerusalem ne er returns to the earth we know until after it’s burned up and destroyed and renewed


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember Jesus told them he was going to another place to prepare a place in the father house for them so they could come later with him where he was going …..and his kingdom is not of this world

I think that above is a great depiction, close to however it will play out. I, therefore see too and by the done work of God for us all given through Son the risen Won for me and all others too, me, watching it work new through me and you too, as well as all who do Believe God, no matter what happens presently. Troubles are to get done, for, to anyone to quit standing in belief that God did take away all sin on that cross for them, through Son to them. To not believe that, to even doubt a modicum. Those that doubt (I have done the doubt) just do not get established soon. I see that in Isaiah 7 and yet Father, Daddy, the Holy Spirit continue to pour out mercy on us all, this has been my experience in God not condemning us as people continue to and I have been there too, no more, thank you
For the things that left me are the things not good for me that I replied to God I see it not good for me, I see desires hanging out all around me, I choose to beleive you Daddy, you by Son can and will take away sin in. me too, I have watched it happen and has never been by any of my own doings ever.
Then I have watched the smoke, smother and cover, standing, trusting God no matter what, someway, somehow, Father and Son will reveal this truth to me to rest in as wells all others standing too, even if I or you sin again and have, I know I have. yet, Father has remained faithful, and I have learned Father never leaves nor forsakes me means. I am risen new in Father, Daddy, PaPa's Spirit and Truth. And it is not easy to rest in this mess here on earth either, yet worth it to continue
Wow!!!!!!!! Thank you Father Psalm 100:4, 103:12, Ezekiel 36:26 and I earned none of it. Thought I had many times in past, while beginning to grow up into God's Maturity over this world's Taking all to Father in prayer to one day hear truth over error, Daddy had never failed me in revealing, whatever is needed to be revealed and does not quit over anyone sinning, since Son took away the sin of the world first. To teach us each one thing at a time and overcome it, without taking any credit in doing it ever
Safe, secure in the risen Son for sure, Father confirmed and humility sticks like glue to me and all others too

 

[Omegatime]

The last day is when believers in Jesus are resurrected (John 6:40) and also when unbelievers are judged (John 12:48). But Revelation Chapter 20 puts 1000 years between the first resurrection and the great white throne judgment (according to premillennialism). So does the last day span the entire 1000 years?

My proposed answer is yes. Because when Jesus comes as the light of the world, there is no night in the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:25; 22:5), which I think comes to earth at the beginning of the millennium. Zechariah 14:7 (NKJV) similarly says regarding the day of the LORD that "at evening time it shall happen that it will be light". So if there is no night, then the last day will continue forever in the New Jerusalem.

There could still be solar days and nights, months, and years, based on the movement of the sun, earth, and moon, but at least there is no contradiction with the the great white throne judgment taking place 1000 years later. What do you think?

--------------------------------------------------

I agree with you

 

[lrs68]

You stated that it could be either 7 days or 7000 years.

Meaning - you could accept either time span as being possible.

I indicated that I do not accept either time span as being possible.

I stated that it had to be 7 days because of what is written in scripture.

I indicated that it is not possible that it could have been 7000 years.

I speak in reference to the Word of God not man's understanding.


The word 'generations' is referring to people in particular - it is not at all referring to the time it took to perform the creation of the heavens and earth.

If you agree with the 7 'days' being 7 1000-year divisions of time - why do you not accept that 'in the day' could be referring to "the first 1000 years" [of human history]???

Are you mixing-and-matching 'days' to what you want it to mean? Or, are you keeping a constant-and-consistant persistent structure of thought...?

( I think there may be a lot more of "man's understanding" in your speaking than you realize... )

You must remember I can read Hebrew and have a Torah\Tanakh Bible that has original meaning that for some reason the English translation doesn't have so I am going to believe that over the kjv any day of the week.

 

[GaryA]

did they resurrect like Lazarus and die later?

Yes - exactly.

 

[tourist]

Born new (again) by God presently forever
wow? truth

The truth is out there.

 

[tourist]

How can anyone not see the 7th-day "Last Day" 1000-year span of time between the Second Coming of Christ and the GWTJ in the Bible??? Are folks not studying the whole Bible - from Genesis to Revelation?

I really do not see how anyone can miss it...

nor do I, but, of course, I'm not a bible scholar.

 

[GaryA]

Well, unless I have forgotten, Paul's eschatology is found mainly in 1 Corinthians and 1&2 Thessalonians as follows:

TOP #112: When Christ comes again at the end, those who belong to him will be resurrected, thereby destroying death. [1Cor. 15:21-28] At this point Paul alludes to an apparent practice of baptizing for the dead (v.29), which is nowhere approved in the NT. He also mentions risking death continually because of assurance Christ is risen (v.30-32).

TOP #114: The resurrected body will be changed into a heavenly or immortal body. [1Cor. 15:35-54, Phil. 3:21] This transfiguration will happen in a flash (v.52).

TOP #213: The dead in Christ will rise first and be joined in the air by Christians who are living at that time. [1Thes. 4:13-18] Regarding the times and dates, “the end will come like a thief in the night” (1Thes. 5:1-4, cf. Matt. 24:36-44/TOJ #144), so the children of light (TOP #168) should be alert or ready rather than asleep or drunk (1Thes. 5:5-7).

TOP #222: Those unsaved will be punished with everlasting destruction and separation from the Lord on Judgment Day. [2Thes. 1:7-10] This passage elaborates a little on TOP #209.

TOP #223: The Day of the Lord will not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed, who will claim to be God and work counterfeit miracles. [2Thes. 2:1-10] This teaching adds to what was said regarding the Second Coming in 1Thes. (TOP #213). The reference to the temple must echo Matt. 24:15.

None of this "does away with" the Millennium.

In the Corinthians passage, death is destroyed at the end of the Millennium. Read carefully. What does verse 25 say? How long must He reign?

And, of course, this means that He will reign. Other places in scripture tell us how long He will reign. (1000 years)

In the 2 Thessalonians passage, it does not mean that all is decided and done the moment Christ appears.

The facts of what will occur at His Second Coming does not prevent Him from reigning after that.

 

[GaryA]

You must remember I can read Hebrew and have a Torah\Tanakh Bible that has original meaning that for some reason the English translation doesn't have so I am going to believe that over the kjv any day of the week.

Okay - so, how do you interpret the "evening and morning" wording in the Hebrew - word-for-word, as it is written?

 

[lrs68]

Okay - so, how do you interpret the "evening and morning" wording in the Hebrew - word-for-word, as it is written?

As you would for any day that is either 24 hours long or 1,000 years or 72 hours or any other example.

No one required 24 hour periods until humans were created. Trees live to be thousands of years old and are not subject to the same laws of humanity like Adam and Eve was.

It very well could have been 24 hour days but there was no need for that until humans were created.

 

[GWH]

None of this "does away with" the Millennium.

In the Corinthians passage, death is destroyed at the end of the Millennium. Read carefully. What does verse 25 say? How long must He reign?

And, of course, this means that He will reign. Other places in scripture tell us how long He will reign. (1000 years)

In the 2 Thessalonians passage, it does not mean that all is decided and done the moment Christ appears.

The facts of what will occur at His Second Coming does not prevent Him from reigning after that.

1. In the Corinthians passage, death is destroyed at the end of the Millennium. Read carefully. What does verse 25 say? How long must He reign? "25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. " Other places in scripture tell us how long He will reign. (1000 years)

Connecting those two Scriptures to arrive at that interpretation requires ignoring that Christ has already reigned for 2000 years.

2. In the 2 Thessalonians passage, [[7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 min flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from2 the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. .... 2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,1 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness2 is revealed, the son of destruction,3 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. ]]

it does not mean that all is decided and done the moment Christ appears. The facts of what will occur at His Second Coming does not prevent Him from reigning after that.

If connected with the rest of the Corinthians passage, it indicates Christ will reign eternally after that:

{{50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

But that was a good try.

 

[greenonions]

The thousand years represents the time period from that to the second resurrection promosed by our covenant when Jesus returns

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a kingdom in heaven where those who were redeemed from the ot reign with Christ since he rose and ascended

You can see here jesus is the man child born to rule with a rod of iron and is taken up to Gods throne . Notice after that happens a large group of people appear celebrating in his kingdom in heaven but another group dwelling on earth is given a woe and warned about satans war against them

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. ( mark 16:19)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. ( the saints of the ot who rose after Jesus did )

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”( New Testament believers )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 10-12, 17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

OK, you are explaining how the OT saints were resurrected and in heaven at Jesus' resurrection. I mentioned the OT saints' resurrection in my previous response. They could be in heaven, like the "spirits of just men made perfect" in Hebrews 12:22-23, but I don't think that proves that they have their resurrection body yet, as I cited the example of Daniel who will arise at the end of the days

People get hung up on trying to calculate how a thousand years figures in it just represents an estimate nonone very extended time period between when Jesus ascended to heavens throne and when he will return from there and gather the rest of his people

at he resurrection wouod hapoen in two stages once for each time Jesus appears

his first time he came the ots promised resurrection happened when he returns the one we are promised will happen

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:

Christ , the firstfruits; ( first resurrection )

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”( last resirrection )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22-23‬ ‭

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 seems to say that Christ resurrects by Himself. The OT saints are also Christ's, so they should resurrect at His coming.

The new Jerusalem ne er returns to the earth we know until after it’s burned up and destroyed and renewed


“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes, according to 2 Peter 3:7, 10-13, there will be fire to burn the earth before the new heavens and new earth. There is another passage in Isaiah that also describes the beginning of the new heavens and new earth. God brings judgment by fire and many people will die. But there will still be survivors and people who have not heard of God's fame or seen His glory. So I think there will be fire, but there will be people in far away nations who will survive to hear about God. In other words, this is not the time of the Great White Throne judgment.

Isaiah 66:16 (ESV) For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the Lord shall be many.

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.

18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord.

24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

remember Jesus told them he was going to another place to prepare a place in the father house for them so they could come later with him where he was going …..and his kingdom is not of this world

Yes, Jesus went to heaven. He prepared the New Jerusalem. John 14:3 (ESV) says: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." Jesus will come again, take us to Himself, and we will be with Him in the New Jerusalem. The kingdom of this world will become His kingdom one day (Rev. 11:15).

 

[greenonions]

There are alot of problems with all the millennial views yeah.

Premills weaknesses include:
Death existing after the second coming
Goes against all the parables of Jesus; Wheat and tares; Sheep and goats; none of these end with a 3rd group left in the flesh, eternal life or eternal damnation.

Plenty of strengths too, like fulfilling the OT prophecies in a more literal way, and an easy to read Rev 20.

Thanks for the summary of strengths and weaknesses. It's easy to get lost in the weeds.

Death existing after the second coming

Isaiah 65:17-20 actually talks about the New heavens, New earth, Jerusalem, and the young man dying a hundred years old. Death will be swallowed up in victory at Jesus' coming, but only for the believers (1 Cor. 15:50-57)

Goes against all the parables of Jesus; Wheat and tares; Sheep and goats; none of these end with a 3rd group left in the flesh, eternal life or eternal damnation.

The parable of the wheat and tares and sheep and goats talk about gathering of the righteous and gathering of the wicked (Matthew 13:30, 40-43; 25:32). There are similar gatherings in Revelation 14:14-20. The gathering of the righteous is the rapture. The gathering of the wicked is the battle of Armaggeddon (see also Joel 3:11-16). Many people will die in the battle (Rev. 19:21), but some will also be captured and will face the Sheep and Goats judgment and then be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20; Matt. 25:41-46). The 3rd group that survives does exist, but they are far away (Zechariah 14:16; Isaiah 66:18-19). But you have a good point that this is in the Old Testament and not in the parables of Jesus.

 

[greenonions]

TOP #222: Those unsaved will be punished with everlasting destruction and separation from the Lord on Judgment Day. [2Thes. 1:7-10] This passage elaborates a little on TOP #209..

It seems like this is the only point that might need reconciliation with premillenialism. First, I disagree with the translation of "separation". Please educate me if I am mistaken.

2 Thess 1:9 (Young's Literal Translation) who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

I think destruction from God's face means that destruction will come from God's face and His glory, not that destruction will put them away from God's face and glory of His strength.

In any case, Rev. 19:20-21 mentions some people who will be killed and some people who will go straight to the lake of fire. In both cases, they are destroyed, but the latter fits the everlasting destruction in 2 Thess. 1:9 better.