Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
rogerg said:
Not! Can a dead person choose?

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Click to expand...

If a dead person can't choose the right, then they can't choose to do wrong. When's the last time you saw a dead man charged for murder he committed when dead?
 
Beckie said:
My Friend :) you have packed a lot into 2 paragraphs .

The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. The Word says what it says Those verses are the Word of God not mine.
So where would the chosen Jews stand?
Doubt my words will be clear but i will try... Things changed with the Birth Death and Resurrection of our Lord.
The old covenant had been broken by man. Do we really need more evidence then the lives of the disciples?
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Jew are not an enemy some are Christians saved by Grace.
Click to expand...

Jer. 31 speaks of a time when the Jews will be restored. Romans 11 says they can be grafted in again if they do not persist in unbelief. The Bible says the Jews will mourn when the recognize the Messiah after their blindness is lifted. The Gentiles and Jews that have become Christians already know Him. But there is a remnant...






Beckie said:
He is a just God
He can only be Godly
I totally agree. While thinking back some years to the Sunday School lessons . God was just when Jericho collapsed. God was just when creepy Hearod murdered all the 2 year old boys. He was just when the death angel of the passover went through Egypt. Speaking of Egypt , Moses was saved from the same kind of death Hearod used. Yes He is just .
Wrote this a couple hours ago ... had to get dinner on the table... hope to spend time here tomorrow .....
Click to expand...

But in each of those situations God was not the cause. That was people making choices to do wrong. What did we have for supper? Hubby and I went to Mexican and it's still on repeat if you get my drift. When will I ever learn?
 
rogerg said:
Disagree. Notice in the below, that God tells the Jews, not that He would take earthly Israel back, but instead that He would
take Jews "one of a city", "two of a family". By that, He is symbolically informing that only Jews that were elected to salvation would return to hm, not that earthly Israel would to Him nor be remarried to Him. Given as God cannot have two wives, and He became married to spiritual Israel, a divorced earthly Israel cannot again become His wife. So, earthly Israel has been given a final divorce decree from which as a nation, there is no return.
Don't forget there are two Israels, and sometimes it is difficult to immediately distinguish which one is in view if we're not considering that as a possibility - one can easily be mistaken for the other.


[Jer 3:11-12, 14-15 KJV]
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever. ...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.



"Would you bear with me for a question or two? So as a dispy how did you believe God related to Israel/ the Jews. How does that differ from your belief now?"

The Jews of Moses's time, as a nation, rejected the gospel of Christ because most had not been given faith and were not of those chosen to be saved (as it happens today too) - they trusted in their own righteousness. That is why, I believe, that God tells us in the below that He purposefully gave to them laws and statutes whereby they should not live. Just my opinion, but because of their rejection of Christ, the die was cast as to where they would end-up (as with all of the unsaved)- it being inevitable even though God had given them frequent warnings and opportunities before He divorced them - but the responsibility for that was upon them. Everyone saved is saved(or not) the same way including the OT/NT Jews - salvation is only given as a gift to some, the others are under judgement -there is no middle ground. Scary, huh?

[Eze 20:24-25 KJV]
24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

"The verses above show you believe God created an elect and others for destruction. So where would the chosen Jews stand?"

First, I'm not sure that I believe that God created anyone for destruction. I believe that judgment came about by Adam, Eve, and Satan, not by God. However, I do believe that God in His mercy and grace had chosen from before the before foundation of the world only certain people whom He intended to save- Jews included - even though they (and we) are completely underserving of it. Since no one deserves it, it is then rightly His prerogative to bequeath to it whomever He so chose for it, which is what He did.
Regarding the Jews, I believe they stand on exactly the same spiritual ground as everyone else does - they were either individually chosen as elect, or they were not - they are either justified by Christ or they're not - no middle ground. I do not believe that a national identity is any factor in it.

"The OT says they are the apple of His eye"

The apple of His eye is the elect. Why? Because God sees them as though He were seeing Christ.

"The Bible says salvation is to the Jew first. We were grafted in."

Certain Jews were the first to become saved/born again(the early rain). Other Jews and non-Jews came afterwards (the latter rain), but the Jews came first. Nevertheless, as it is for one, so it is for the other.

"So you say the elect are assured of salvation, whether they slip and fail or not they "always saved". Would that not even be more so to the Jews whom the covenants were made? How can the elect be always in Gods grace and the chosen Jews outside His grace."

What do you mean by "chosen Jews" ? Do you mean the elect Jews or somehow the Jews of earthly Israel - they can be different sets of Jews? No one is saved because of any earthly affiliation - Israel or otherwise. It is solely dependent upon whether or not God had chosen the individual for salvation.
Slipping and falling has no effect or impact upon one's salvation if of the elect - whether Jews or otherwise - all are under God's grace. Salvation is solely by what Christ achieved, not by what a person might achieve or not.

"Hosea in the end is calling Israel to repent and return to God. Once you divorce a spouse do you keep calling them to return? No, you don't, and you certainly don't make a new covenant with them."

Don't know which verses you have in mind, but generally, the verses having to do with blessing are intended for
spiritual Isarel; the verses having to do with bad things, judgements, etc, for earthly Israel, maybe even for all of the non-elect.
I haven't read that book in quite a while, so it's difficult for me to recall precise details right now.

So, it's kind of late for me and being tired I may not have written everything as I should have.
Therefore, I'll reread maybe tomorrow hopefully with a fresh brain, but might find things that I'll need to revise.
Click to expand...


I'll get back to you on this one. The Mexican food gave me weird dreams all night. Need to splash water on my face and wake up here.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Ahh! Good point! Why pray, or preach or evangelize? If half of us are already secure and the other half can never come why even have a church? Why read the Bible? Why tell anyone that God can forgive your sin? Maybe He won't or can't. We send missions overseas, to what purpose? A waste of time, money and effort. God already choose the outcome.
Click to expand...

I know the typical answer a Calvinist will give, God in His foreknowledge has already taken those prayers into account.

The Gospel must be preached to reach His elect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: John146
ThereRoseaLamb said:
I'll get back to you on this one. The Mexican food gave me weird dreams all night. Need to splash water on my face and wake up here.
Click to expand...

Sure, no problem - no rush. That happens to me too when I eat Mexican - but I love it and continue to eat it but the ol stomach
isn't what it once was.
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Jer. 31 speaks of a time when the Jews will be restored. Romans 11 says they can be grafted in again if they do not persist in unbelief. The Bible says the Jews will mourn when the recognize the Messiah after their blindness is lifted. The Gentiles and Jews that have become Christians already know Him. But there is a remnant...








But in each of those situations God was not the cause. That was people making choices to do wrong. What did we have for supper? Hubby and I went to Mexican and it's still on repeat if you get my drift. When will I ever learn?
Click to expand...
What choice did the children who died make?

Clam chowder with cheesy bread sticks :) Still real cold up here.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.


When in dispensastionalism i read the NT Scriptures as future. As well as lots of the OT as future. I did not see/accept the simple reality of Jesus saying soon. I would not accept

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.




Our Bibles are not written / put together in chronological order nor were they written in chapter and verse .
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
If a dead person can't choose the right, then they can't choose to do wrong. When's the last time you saw a dead man charged for murder he committed when dead?
Click to expand...

It was by Adam's actions that everyone were made into sinners and dead spiritually. We see it every day as most from the womb are judged sinners and enemies of the gospel of Christ -- their trust is in their works for salvation and without true faith in Christ - that is the sin upon which all of the unsaved will be judged.

[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
John146 said:
Do you ever pray for matters that you're not sure it's God's will or not? Do you believe prayer works?
Click to expand...

Pray that God's will be done - that is the prayer - it is good in any situation.
However, we are free to pray for anything we so choose to, but we are told they
will be answered only as they are in accordance with His will.
 
rogerg said:
Pray that God's will be done - that is the prayer - it is good in any situation.
However, we are free to pray for anything we so choose to, but we are told they
will be answered only as they are in accordance with His will.
Click to expand...

Can I share a couple of examples?

Example 1, Hezekiah's prayer was answered even after the Lord told him he was going to die. God changed his mind based on Hezekiah's prayer.

2 Kings 20
1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,
3 I beseech thee, O Lord, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.
6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Example 2, David knew that his crying out to God in prayer might change the mind of God that his child may live.

2 Samuel 12
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Example 3, the people of Nineveh cried out to God and changed God's mind concerning destroying them in forty days. God repented of the evil that he said he would do unto them and he did it not.

Jonah 3
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ThereRoseaLamb
Cameron143 said:
In My name or in Jesus name means in accordance with the will of God.
Prayer isn't so God will bend to our will but that He will reveal to us His will.
Click to expand...

Aren't we to go to the Lord with our prayers and supplication with thanksgiving?
 
Cameron143 said:
In My name or in Jesus name means in accordance with the will of God.
Prayer isn't so God will bend to our will but that He will reveal to us His will.
Click to expand...

I battled cancer for several years going through treatment after treatment. Many prayed on my behalf. I believe prayer works. In the natural course of history, I may have died, but because people were crying out to God on my behalf, God stepped in and brought me healing.
 
John146 said:
I battled cancer for several years going through treatment after treatment. Many prayed on my behalf. I believe prayer works. In the natural course of history, I may have died, but because people were crying out to God on my behalf, God stepped in and brought me healing.
Click to expand...
When they prayed, did they say to God, do this or else? Or did they pray, not our will but your will be done?
Even unto death, Jesus asked for relief, but ended His prayer...not My will, but Thine be done.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beckie
Cameron143 said:
When they prayed, did they say to God, do this or else? Or did they pray, not our will but your will be done?
Even unto death, Jesus asked for relief, but ended His prayer...not My will, but Thine be done.
Click to expand...

Ask David, Hezekiah, and Nineveh. Maybe the natural course of history was going to play out and I was going to die, but because people cried out on my behalf, God kept me alive. God's will is outlined in scripture. Yes, we should pray that. But what about things that are not in scripture?
 
John146 said:
Ask David, Hezekiah, and Nineveh. Maybe the natural course of history was going to play out and I was going to die, but because people cried out on my behalf, God kept me alive. God's will is outlined in scripture. Yes, we should pray that. But what about things that are not in scripture?
Click to expand...
God's will always comes to pass. It's immutable.
I'm glad God blessed you with healing but I believe it was always His intention and for His glory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Beckie and rogerg
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back