Do you pray for the lost? Then welcome to Calvinism

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Well, God's woodshed ain't much easier. When I find myself at odds with His purpose, He proves He loves me by chastening me. It isn't pleasant. Sometimes it seems like there is a wall between He and I and it isn't until I get it right with Him that that wall goes away. I'd say that is spiritual . . . a refining of my soul.
 
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It is always good when our Father reproves us and disciplines us. It is holy and loving attention we all need if we are going to learn anyting while visiting heree in this age.

Praise God, He is worthy not us...amen. PS So fat the Father has givenme strength to thank Him for everything that comes my way, very good, easy, very bad, not easy, but all works out as blessing when I thank Him, but most know this already. God bless you and good night from here…….
 
selfdissolving said:
If God is the one who saves who he will and when he will, you're a Calvinist.
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Since -- according to Calvinists -- some are elected for salvation already, their salvation is a foregone conclusion. No need for prayer or even evangelism. This is what Hyper-Calvinists actually believe.

On the other hand -- according to Calvinists -- the majority are foreordained to damnation, there would be no point try to change this "so called" decree of God through prayer, since -- also according to Calvinists -- God's decrees are immutable.

Fortunately, Abraham lived long before the Reformers and Calvin, so he had no problem pleading for Sodom. And God was prepared to alter His *decree*.
 
selfdissolving said:
In Arminianism there is no point to pray for the lost. God has already done everything he could do. He provided the atonement, he sent his ministers to preach the gospel, they told him all about Jesus, but he used his free will to resist the Holy Spirit and God is powerless to do anything about it.

By praying for the lost you are asking God to change the persons heart so they repent and turn to him in faith. Sounds like Calvinism to me!

Is God the one who effects the salvation of the lost sinner or not?

If the sinner is the one who makes the choice, then God has done all he could and theres no point in praying for them anymore.

If God is the one who saves who he will and when he will, you're a Calvinist.
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I am not a Calvinist but were I one I'd hope to avoid this community all together.

God's word came before John Calvin. And God's word fully informs that God calls whom he will to be saved and Jesus said no one comes to him but the Father draws them. And the scriptures also tell us that God does not hear sinners prayers and in fact he hates transgressors and their sin.
John Calvin simply as a lawyer fashioned a synopsis of the circumstantial evidences in the scriptures that existed already and made a name for himself.
 
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And FYI to the OP subject title: Calvinists would not be the one's that pray for the lost. It would be Arminian's that do this.

 
Lillywolf said:
And FYI to the OP subject title: Calvinists would not be the one's that pray for the lost. It would be Arminian's that do this.

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How do you figure? God is powerless to convert the lost sinner that has rejected him. Why would you ask God to do what is impossible?

In the Arminian position, God has done all he can do. The only thing left is for the lost sinner to decide he wants to follow God now. So what is praying for him going to accomplish? God can't change the sinners mind, that would violate his free will!

Calvinist's pray for the lost because we know it is ALWAYS God who changes the heart of the sinner. It is ALWAYS a direct action on the behalf of the Sovereign God to empower the lost sinner to respond to the call of the gospel with saving grace.

God chooses us, we don't choose him.
That's Calvinism.
 
G
Nehemiah6 said:
Since -- according to Calvinists -- some are elected for salvation already, their salvation is a foregone conclusion. No need for prayer or even evangelism. This is what Hyper-Calvinists actually believe.

On the other hand -- according to Calvinists -- the majority are foreordained to damnation, there would be no point try to change this "so called" decree of God through prayer, since -- also according to Calvinists -- God's decrees are immutable.

Fortunately, Abraham lived long before the Reformers and Calvin, so he had no problem pleading for Sodom. And God was prepared to alter His *decree*.
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A simple misunderstanding. God uses means to save his people. Namely, the gospel and the preaching of it by his ministers as commanded in Scripture. Could he do it another way? Of course! But he chooses to do it this way according to his Sovereign will, as commanded in Scripture, and as we have seen Christians doing in obedience for 2000 years.
 
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selfdissolving said:
G

A simple misunderstanding. God uses means to save his people. Namely, the gospel and the preaching of it by his ministers as commanded in Scripture. Could he do it another way? Of course! But he chooses to do it this way according to his Sovereign will, as commanded in Scripture, and as we have seen Christians doing in obedience for 2000 years.
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I would not label your view of God's working through men as Calvinism at all. I would call it the Bible method as faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, which God uses men to deliver. He calls us by His Gospel. I can say Amen to that any time.
 
selfdissolving said:
How do you figure? God is powerless to convert the lost sinner that has rejected him. Why would you ask God to do what is impossible?

In the Arminian position, God has done all he can do. The only thing left is for the lost sinner to decide he wants to follow God now. So what is praying for him going to accomplish? God can't change the sinners mind, that would violate his free will!

Calvinist's pray for the lost because we know it is ALWAYS God who changes the heart of the sinner. It is ALWAYS a direct action on the behalf of the Sovereign God to empower the lost sinner to respond to the call of the gospel with saving grace.

God chooses us, we don't choose him.
That's Calvinism.
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God is powerless to the will of the sinner?
Do you know what you just affirmed in that first statement? Do you really?
 
selfdissolving said:
and as we have seen Christians doing in obedience for 2000 years.
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And since the Gospel is to be preached to EVERY CREATURE God expects every creature to hear the Gospel and then obey the Gospel. Which effectively destroys *unconditional election*.
 
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In the garden God clothed Adam and Eve. Not by them asking but by his grace and mercy. Finding them hidding and ashamed.
In retrospect he made provision for all man kind.
 
pottersclay said:
In the garden God clothed Adam and Eve. Not by them asking but by his grace and mercy. Finding them hidding and ashamed.
In retrospect he made provision for all man kind.
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I doubt that our first parents had any grasp on the concept of 'asking' . . . so I don't see God having much choice. BUT, if you are going to use this to create a doctrinal absolute then you must carry it to its logical conclusion. God must search out each and every person that were ever born and cloth them in coats of skin.

Nope, as the old farmer said, "That dog won't hunt."
 
Lillywolf said:
And FYI to the OP subject title: Calvinists would not be the one's that pray for the lost. It would be Arminian's that do this.

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ON total depravity, I am not agree. Some Non Christian not steal, help the poor, It mean some non Christian not totally Incapable doing right.
 
pray for the lost.........pray for the lost.........pray for the lost.............what's with all this pray for the lost???????????

geessshhhh

didn't know better, one would think Christ took upon Himself the form of man to come down to earth to save the lost........

uh, er, oh.............wait...........
 
Nehemiah6 said:
And since the Gospel is to be preached to EVERY CREATURE God expects every creature to hear the Gospel and then obey the Gospel. Which effectively destroys *unconditional election*.
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Didn't you know that "every creature" means the elect?;)
 
In calvinism it is pointless to even pray for the conviction of the Holy Spirit to come upon another person because according to calvinism God either created that person to be forced to be saved or created that person to burn for eternity in the lake of fire...
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I don’t know about forced? I see it more as lovingly willed to be saved . Just as we were lovingly willed to be created in the beginning.

God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires .In that way it is God working in us to both will and perform His good pleasure, called a imputed righteousness.

I would say a person is not going to change the character of God just because it is he who performs the things he appoints to us. Why murmur and complain and not just do it? After all it is he who makes our hearts soft so that we can rest in Him.

Why go back from the commandment of His lips to go out and makes disciples of men knowing he must do the first work and give them His faith that comes from hearing the gospel before they can believe? Do you feel forced to share the gospel?

Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him:On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him:But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:Job 23:8-16

If the Holy Spirit lovingly desires we pray for the conviction of the lost why would we ignore it?

I am glad i am not a calvinist.. It would be just terrible to think that a loving God would create someone with no other purpose then to be cast into the eternal lake of fire to suffer torment for eternity, a person who had absolutely no opportunity to accept the will of God.. How terrible a doctrine to believe it.. Glad i don't..

If salvation was multiple choice then a person could say they made a better choice than those in whom God did not have the same kind of mercy on. The idea of those in whom were not chosen suffering forever and ever would mean God is merciless .

God is a God mercy giving some a eternal new spirt that will rise on the last day and other no new spirit that will rise. The dead know nothing they have no eternal spirit and the saint that do have a new spirit that will rise on the last day, the former things of here will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I believe God is the one who saves whom He wills and when He wills... But i am not a calvinist.
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What would you call yourself then seeing Calvin believes the same?
 
trofimus said:
Are dogs creatures too? Or demons?
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Dog are but not created in his image. Mankind alone is.

Male and female he made dogs. Male he made mankind as one creation (them)

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; "male and female" created he them.Genesis 1:26-27


Demons are spirits not made of the dust of the field as beast of the field as a different kind of creation. They are not subject to salvation and the new creation.
 
It would be interesting to see what folks make of the following.

Jesus prayed for His disciples who God had given Him.

Jesus all prayed for all those who would come to salvation through the
preaching and message of the disciples. That would be you and me.
He didn’t pray for everyone regardless of whether they come to salvation or
not.

FOR THE DISCIPLES.
John 17:6-26 NKJV
[6] "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
[7] Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
[8] For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have
received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have
believed that You sent Me.
[9] "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have
given Me, for they are Yours. [10] And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine,
and I am glorified in them. [11] Now I am no longer in the world, but
these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through
Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as
We are. [12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name.
Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the
son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. [13] But now I come to
You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled
in themselves. [14] I have given them Your word; and the world has hated
them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
[15] I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that
You should keep them from the evil one. [16] They are not of the world,
just as I am not of the world. [17] Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word
is truth. [18] As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified
by the truth.

FOR FUTURE BELIEVERS

[20] "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe
in Me through their word;
[21] that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in
You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that
You sent Me. [22] And the glory which You gave Me I have given them,
that they may be one just as We are one:
[23] I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one,
and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have
loved them as You have loved Me. [24] "Father, I desire that they also
whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold
My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation
of the world. [25] O righteous Father! The world has not known You,
but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. [26] And I
have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with
which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."


It’s awesome when you consider Jesus prayed for us! Wow.
Question do you think He knew which future individuals He was praying for?
 
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NayborBear said:
Until they are no longer looking at the top side of a lawn mower. I agree! God's will, for those, is done!

I think people tend to place TOO MUCH "meaning" to the term "predestine." Some will "yield" to God's will, and convert? Some won't! I don't believe God predestines ANY "soul" to hell!

Having said that? God DOES foreknow those to whom He has (how can I say) confidence in doing that which, by His will, or good pleasure, TO accomplish, or execute!

God did this in the O.T.? Only a "cessessionist", would think, or believe this does not ocurr these days!
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Hell is the living suffering a person experiences in this life as tribulation. All men are under the wrath of God all of the days of their corrupted dying flesh . We live in a body of death born with a temporal corrupted spirit.

God who is a God of mercy would not make a person suffer forever and ever. That would make him merciless. He gives to some that he has elected from the foundation of the world a new spirit and new heart that will rise on the last day. There names are written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world . And the others when their corrupted spirit dies it returns to the father as their dead flesh returns to the dust it was formed of. It will not rise to new spirit life on the last day .

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust returnto the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God uses Jonas and Christ as comparison example of a living sacrifice. Neither was dead when they did experience hell .

No dead sacrifices. The suffering of hell does not occur when a person no longer is here. What could perform the work of suffering if a person has no body or spirit ? Zombies?

A body without a spirit is dead just like faith without works . No faith to work it out, no suffering


Jonah 2:1-5 King James Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
 
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