Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Blik]

Bait question. I'm not playing your game.


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.


If? I have read all of Paul's letters many times. You're playing semantics. This isn't about being "against Moses". It's about whether we as Christians are under the Law.


Where in Scripture does it say anything like this?

It seems that you start by trying to figure out how to obey the Law, assuming that you are still under it. I start with the understanding that in Christ, I am free from the Law. We aren't going to get to the same place, because there is no common ground. A person is either under the Law--all of it--or they are not under the Law. I don't look to the Law to find out how to please God; I trust that in Christ, I am already pleasing to Him.

It is impossible to give your life to Christ and follow your instructions. If you accept Christ within you then your will has given all sin over to Him for forgiveness and you do not will to not follow the law, and that law is the spirit of the law. Your sins have been given to Christ, you are then made righteous through Christ as if you had not been sinful. As a righteous, sinless person you cannot willfully aim at disobedience.

Although scripture states that both the law of Moses and the new covenant was given to the Israelites, scripture also tells us that we are accepted as God's people. These scriptures apply to us as well.

Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49 - One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

 

[Dino246]

It is impossible to give your life to Christ and follow your instructions. If you accept Christ within you then your will has given all sin over to Him for forgiveness and you do not will to not follow the law, and that law is the spirit of the law. Your sins have been given to Christ, you are then made righteous through Christ as if you had not been sinful. As a righteous, sinless person you cannot willfully aim at disobedience.

Although scripture states that both the law of Moses and the new covenant was given to the Israelites, scripture also tells us that we are accepted as God's people. These scriptures apply to us as well.

Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49 - One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

I'll start with the verses you quoted; both are from the Law and speak of a non-Israelite joining him- or herself to national, covenantal Israel. This is not how things work in the Church, where the common ground is not adherence to Law, but faith in Christ, in Whom there is no Jew or Gentile.

This sentence doesn't make sense to me: "If you accept Christ within you then your will has given all sin over to Him for forgiveness and you do not will to not follow the law, and that law is the spirit of the law." Perhaps you could rephrase it?

"As a righteous, sinless person, you cannot willfully aim at disobedience." Correct. If you think that I believe otherwise, then please quote me where I even remotely suggest that you should. Recognizing that I am not subject to the Law is categorically distinct from willfully aiming at disobedience.

The difference we have is really simple: you (seem to) believe that all the OT Law applies fully to Christians. I don't, because I believe the NT teaches that it doesn't. You can't be righteous before God by two conflicting means: either you are righteous before God by complete obedience to the Law all of your life, or you are righteous before God by faith in Jesus Christ. Again, there is no middle ground. Paul teaches very clearly in Galatians that once we begin our journey with God by faith, we are not to finish it by the works of the Law, yet this is exactly what you seem to believe.

 

[Grandpa]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Yes. The Lord told us we no longer need to continue to work at the law of Moses.

Matthew 11:28-31
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


This doesn't mean that you will "stop" keeping the law. It means that when you come to Christ you stop working at the law because you have been given rest.

But, counter to what you said, you never kept the law to begin with. Maybe you thought you did, and maybe you think you still do. But without Christ you can do nothing.

 

[Grandpa]

It is impossible to give your life to Christ and follow your instructions. If you accept Christ within you then your will has given all sin over to Him for forgiveness and you do not will to not follow the law, and that law is the spirit of the law. Your sins have been given to Christ, you are then made righteous through Christ as if you had not been sinful. As a righteous, sinless person you cannot willfully aim at disobedience.

Although scripture states that both the law of Moses and the new covenant was given to the Israelites, scripture also tells us that we are accepted as God's people. These scriptures apply to us as well.

Leviticus 24:22 - Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49 - One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

It is true that the Christian does not will to NOT follow the law.

However, that will does not give ability.

Only Christ gives ability. And He doesn't give us ability because WE will it. He gives us ability because He Wills it.

And He doesn't Will that we continue to work at the law of Moses as the ancient Jews did. He Wills that we abide in Him and His Rest.

In other words, we Trust in Christ and His Work and we don't trust in our wills and our work. In that way it is about our Faith and not about our work at the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is true that the Christian does not will to NOT follow the law.

However, that will does not give ability.

Only Christ gives ability. And He doesn't give us ability because WE will it. He gives us ability because He Wills it.

And He doesn't Will that we continue to work at the law of Moses as the ancient Jews did. He Wills that we abide in Him and His Rest.

In other words, we Trust in Christ and His Work and we don't trust in our wills and our work. In that way it is about our Faith and not about our work at the law.

Hey brother have not seen you in awhile. Hope all is well!

 

[Blik]

I'll start with the verses you quoted; both are from the Law and speak of a non-Israelite joining him- or herself to national, covenantal Israel. This is not how things work in the Church, where the common ground is not adherence to Law, but faith in Christ, in Whom there is no Jew or Gentile.

This sentence doesn't make sense to me: "If you accept Christ within you then your will has given all sin over to Him for forgiveness and you do not will to not follow the law, and that law is the spirit of the law." Perhaps you could rephrase it?

"As a righteous, sinless person, you cannot willfully aim at disobedience." Correct. If you think that I believe otherwise, then please quote me where I even remotely suggest that you should. Recognizing that I am not subject to the Law is categorically distinct from willfully aiming at disobedience.

The difference we have is really simple: you (seem to) believe that all the OT Law applies fully to Christians. I don't, because I believe the NT teaches that it doesn't. You can't be righteous before God by two conflicting means: either you are righteous before God by complete obedience to the Law all of your life, or you are righteous before God by faith in Jesus Christ. Again, there is no middle ground. Paul teaches very clearly in Galatians that once we begin our journey with God by faith, we are not to finish it by the works of the Law, yet this is exactly what you seem to believe.

Just separating law and faith takes you away from scripture.

If you would study Romans with an open mind and not a mind the eliminates law you would understand the Lord. Perhaps your conception of the word "law" is the reason for the way you understand the lord. That word is the best interpretation of the Hebrew, and if we had an English word that would mean the same as the Hebrew it would include our word guidance.

You say that you simply don't include the law in your thinking, yet the law tells us what is sin.

I think the difference in our understanding of what is scripture and what is not makes us very different. I believe God is eternal and there is no scripture that is in error or different. I don't think you have ever studied or understand symbolism that God uses and this results in not understanding God.

 

[Blik]

It is true that the Christian does not will to NOT follow the law.

However, that will does not give ability.

Only Christ gives ability. And He doesn't give us ability because WE will it. He gives us ability because He Wills it.

And He doesn't Will that we continue to work at the law of Moses as the ancient Jews did. He Wills that we abide in Him and His Rest.

In other words, we Trust in Christ and His Work and we don't trust in our wills and our work. In that way it is about our Faith and not about our work at the law.

If you were sincere about following Jesus, you would have to include Moses.

 

[Marcelo]

Yes. The Lord told us we no longer need to continue to work at the law of Moses.

Matthew 11:28-31
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Nice contribution to my study! Almost certainly Jesus was hinting at the New Covenant.

 

[Dino246]

Just separating law and faith takes you away from scripture.

If you would study Romans with an open mind and not a mind the eliminates law you would understand the Lord. Perhaps your conception of the word "law" is the reason for the way you understand the lord. That word is the best interpretation of the Hebrew, and if we had an English word that would mean the same as the Hebrew it would include our word guidance.

You say that you simply don't include the law in your thinking, yet the law tells us what is sin.

I think the difference in our understanding of what is scripture and what is not makes us very different. I believe God is eternal and there is no scripture that is in error or different. I don't think you have ever studied or understand symbolism that God uses and this results in not understanding God.

Again you are asserting that I have used words and phrases that I have not used.

Nowhere have I said or implied that I "simply don't include the law in (my) thinking".

Is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" merely 'guidance' or is it a LAW, for which disobedience results in punishment by death?

This has nothing to do with symbolism. It has everything to do with the method by which our legal and relational standing before God is established and maintained. I believe they come about by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work. You (seem to) believe that they come about by obedience to the Law. If I'm incorrect about your belief, you are welcome to correct me.

 

[calibob]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Well do you believe the entire bible is the inspired word of God with out fault as originally written? If so Pauls teachings are flawless. If not how do you discern where the mistakes are?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

No, the sin of the Pharisees was too much emphasis on lesser matters of the Torah, like tzitzit and tefillin, while neglecting the weightier matters of the Torah, such as giving to the poor and doing good works. This is why the Messiah said, "do what they say", because they taught the Torah, "but not what they do", because they didn't practice the Torah fully. And they were essentially also lovers of money, aside from teaching many other false teachings, all based on lack of understanding and disbelief.

So you think the Pharisees lack knowledge of anything Torah?

 

[baeJO6]

How did we come to be not under law?

I see Moses laws as a measure God gave us to live by. If a person follows the laws of Moses by the letter but does not believe God freed us from the hell we were headed for, that person would still go to hell because his faith was not in Jesus. And God knew none of us could fulfill the laws of Moses as humans, therefore Jesus, the pure one paid for our sins. The laws of Moses, "Ten Commandments" are guides for living the life that God wants us to live. Jesus came to us as a passage way to get to Heaven.

 

[Marcelo]

Well do you believe the entire bible is the inspired word of God with out fault as originally written? If so Pauls teachings are flawless. If not how do you discern where the mistakes are?

I do believe the Bible is flawless, but many Christians are not so sure about it. I'll give you an example:

Jesus said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul, however, said that he knew how to live in want or in plenty (he said it was OK to be rich). Most Christians read what Jesus said, take it as the whole truth (because they learned that Jesus' words take precedence over Paul's), but don't obey the Lord. If they believe Jesus' teachings override those of Paul they should obey Jesus. Following Paul is this case would be a sin (a matter of conscience).

In the example given above I don't obey Jesus -- I follow Paul --, but I know why I do this: it's because Paul's words are actually the words of the risen Jesus.

 

[posthuman]

I see Moses laws as a measure God gave us to live by. If a person follows the laws of Moses by the letter but does not believe God freed us from the hell we were headed for, that person would still go to hell because his faith was not in Jesus.

hi! welcome to the forum

please don't take this negatively; i'm only trying to encourage thought:

what you said makes "believing God freed us from hell" the measure, not the keeping of the law.

it is like you have odd numbers, and you have prime numbers. all prime numbers except the number 2, are odd.
however since not every odd number is prime, it isn't whether a number is odd or not that is the measure, but whether it is actually prime -- and there is a prime number which is not odd: the number 2, so whether a number is odd or not is not only sufficient, but it's not even necessary proof.

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.​

(Romans 4:5)​

​

i reckon, if a number is not odd but it is prime, we know exactly what it is: 2
likewise, if a person is not keeping the law of Moses, but they are saved, we also know exactly 'what it is' - they have trusted the Lord


because the real measure is this:

​

Jesus said to her, “I AM the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” ​

(John 11:25-26)​

​

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The Messiah came to end sin by causing man to stop sinning, hence "he who is born of God cannot sin".

Ever since AD70 it has been impossible for Mosaic Law observers to atone for their sins. Modern Jewish philosophers offer excuses and work-arounds (not of faith of Abraham), but the fact remains that if just one law is neglected, that law observer is guilty of them all.
There is no substitute human action that can satisfy
Leviticus 17:11 (KJV)
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

I doubt many Jews dare eat blood, but how many generations have neglected the commanded sacrifices of blood to atone for their souls? What Mosaic lawkeepers have instead is a false religion, that while they might not have removed a jot nor tittle from the Law, they have altered and added jots and tittles by their modern observances and failure to keep their law.

The Jews had thousands of years to try defeating sin by the Law. They failed miserably generation to generation, returning to false gods. Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught to try that method, as the Law was weak and could never save a soul. Nowhere is it said Jesus died to the sake of the Law, but died to fulfill it, that is, to satisfy both the Law and God once and for all. His blood was accepted by God to end the need for animal blood atonement for sin. Notice animal sacrifice among Jews ended with the Temple destruction. Obviously God allowed that so that all Jews apart from Christ Jesus die in their accumulated sins. There is no hope for any lawkeeper outside of the gospel of Christ. That's why Christians have no problem not studying the Law as a vital exercise. I have read them all and came away with love washed away, leaving the detritus of death on me. We have more than "enough" New Covenant instructions to live by, while exceeding the power of the Law by living in the faith and love of Jesus Christ. His love eclipses Moses' commands of obedience that no man can possibly fulfill.

Run to Jesus!

 

[Blik]

Again you are asserting that I have used words and phrases that I have not used.

Nowhere have I said or implied that I "simply don't include the law in (my) thinking".

Is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" merely 'guidance' or is it a LAW, for which disobedience results in punishment by death?

This has nothing to do with symbolism. It has everything to do with the method by which our legal and relational standing before God is established and maintained. I believe they come about by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work. You (seem to) believe that they come about by obedience to the Law. If I'm incorrect about your belief, you are welcome to correct me.

If someone misunderstands your post, why not state your position with more clarity instead of just accusing. Your words are: "I am not subject to the Law is cate" "It's about whether we as Christians are under the Law.". If you mean you are not under the law for God's acceptance of your righteousness, I agree completely, me too. We are under Christ for that. If you mean that you now live a life without law in it, you are also in trouble. What do you mean by this?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I do believe the Bible is flawless, but many Christians are not so sure about it. I'll give you an example:

Jesus said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul, however, said that he knew how to live in want or in plenty (he said it was OK to be rich). Most Christians read what Jesus said, take it as the whole truth (because they learned that Jesus' words take precedence over Paul's), but don't obey the Lord. If they believe Jesus' teachings override those of Paul they should obey Jesus. Following Paul is this case would be a sin (a matter of conscience).

In the example given above I don't obey Jesus -- I follow Paul --, but I know why I do this: it's because Paul's words are actually the words of the risen Jesus.

If Jesus was speaking of a camel going through the eye of a sewing needle, He meant it was impossible for a wealthy man to be saved, for never would a camel do the impossible. Yet, Phillip converted the wealthy Eunuch from Egypt, while would you suppose Abraham and Job would enter hell because they were very wealthy, along with King David, Solomon, Hezekiah, et al.?

In those days large cities had great walls with some very narrow, low slots for passage of people and goods without having to open a major gate for a camel, while preventing an enemy force from entering in numbers and articles of war. You learn of that when visiting Jerusalem and other Israeli cities. The camel's burden had to be taken off, put the camel on it's knees, let it through, then put the burden back on it. The idea was used to indicate how wealthy men usually would and still often refuse or regret to depart with their treasures a little time even if it meant not being allowed into the city. Difficult, painful, but not impossible.

Jesus and the apostles found support among the rich, like Mary and Joseph being enriched by the magi, Jesus being ministered to by the lady who dealt in purple (fabrics for the wealthy) and others along His way. Paul was blessed too, and all were promised great blessings for giving up everything. Paul finished his Rome experience living in his own rented house, receiving visitors, teaching them. Many modern wealthy people have been mega donors who couldn't out-give God. The history of R.G LeTourneau is a model of a Christian living properly with wealth.

 

[PS]

I do believe the Bible is flawless, but many Christians are not so sure about it. I'll give you an example:

Jesus said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul, however, said that he knew how to live in want or in plenty (he said it was OK to be rich). Most Christians read what Jesus said, take it as the whole truth (because they learned that Jesus' words take precedence over Paul's), but don't obey the Lord. If they believe Jesus' teachings override those of Paul they should obey Jesus. Following Paul is this case would be a sin (a matter of conscience).

In the example given above I don't obey Jesus -- I follow Paul --, but I know why I do this: it's because Paul's words are actually the words of the risen Jesus.

If you understood the parable about the camel and the narrow gate is about prioritising Jesus and following Him despite any difficulties or temptations that may come our way, you would know that both Jesus and Paul are correct in putting God first rather than taking the easy way of the world.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

I'm not a law-keeper, but I still haven't found a single piece of evidence -- in the Gospels -- that Jesus ever told us to stop keeping the Law. Should we rely solely on what Paul said?

Did anyone, other than Jesus, ever keep the law of Moses? If not, what makes you think you should try to be the first?

 

[Grandpa]

Hey brother have not seen you in awhile. Hope all is well!

Yes, all is well, thanks. Just taking breaks...