Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[studier]

Turning to Christ, is this an act of belief and/or faith when done by an unbeliever? No, nor is it being saved. Is it part of the process of one coming to believe? I would say so, yes. It is an act of the seeker, and, God wants us to seek Him, it is explicitly written, and it is promised He will reveal Himself to those who do, all the while

Does the seeker choose to seek God who has revealed Himself in all men?

all the while, He is drawing us with loving kindness, being patient with us.

How is God's drawing explained by Jesus?

To hear some speak they must be outraged that God is drawing them without their explicit permission, such a violation of their imagined free will.

I've not seen someone take issue against God drawing men to His Son and thus to Himself. As I read the instruction on the drawing of men by God the Father and by Jesus Christ, it can both be understood and accepted or rejected by the choice of unregenerate men.

Care to begin in Scripture looking at God's drawing of unbelievers to discuss what we see?

 

[studier]

Hey, at least I was pretty excited for about 45 minutes there. Oh well, better than nothing I suppose.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems the love being sought here is everyone agreeing with you.

I too would like all to be in agreement as Paul at minimum spoke of several times and even commanded. But there is a battle still taking place against false gospels aka false doctrines. Some are just Christians working through interpretive problems (albeit disrespectfully - aka unlovingly) while some are Christians standing against doctrines of demons.

 

[MerSee]

I'd categorize them as idolaters rather than back sliders. But then I'm not sure I have a sure grasp of what exactly constitutes a backslider. As I see it, an idolater does not love God with all he's got, and a backslider is similar but more like an adulterer in he might love God but has a tendency to keep longing for other gods. I guess either way, these have missed.

Idolaters are those who make false doctrine their idol.

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

It is all so strange that Christians would treat each other this way. Particularly when scripture is abundantly clear that those who are abusive, they couldn't possibly belong to the father.

I find it very interesting that rarely do we ever encounter such abusive people within the church. That's not to say that they don't exist, for I've had a man about 160 years old step up about 2 in from my face and put his finger in my chest. But by and large, this Behavior does not happen within a church building, at least not on a weekly basis, as it is done at Christian Forums on a moment by moment basis.

If there's one thing that we can count on from Christian forums, is that there will be an active fight amongst Christians. I wonder why this is? Why is this Behavior allowed? Does it have something to do with donations? After all, if all argumentative and disruptive people were to be rejected, with the ownership make as much money?

And please pardon my typos, I'm voice texting which isn't always the most effective.

i’m new to these boards, often i don’t jump in on a topic because there is some kind of argument or personal attacks going on

it’s ashame how badly christians treat each other, we attack each other more often than those in the world, what’s crazy is we attack each other over doctrines that don’t eliminate any of us from the body of christ

 

[studier]

It is all so strange that Christians would treat each other this way. Particularly when scripture is abundantly clear that those who are abusive, they couldn't possibly belong to the father.

This is error.

All one needs to do is refer to 1Cor3 - where Paul is chiding Christian infancy - to see that part of their being fleshly is their divisive differentiation based upon favored teachers or those who may have baptized them. This is how infants think and what infants do, e.g. my dad is bigger than your dad! And this is why Christian infancy is recognized but not coddled in our Text. Christian immaturity is not that far removed experientially from unbelief.

Even in the pews, we're sitting next to weeds that look like wheat. But, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Although Christian infancy is difficult to differentiate from unbelief, once someone starts talking the content of their heart will come out, eventually. And even though some unbelief can be very sophisticated and clever, then we have the production of their lives to look at. And, in the end, it is omniscient and eternal God who can see into the depths of motivations and will do the final sorting that we can't do.

In regard to our duties here, one of the the things we're not that good at in these times of large congregations, individualism. and not butting in is what's said here:

NKJ Heb10:24-27 And let us consider one another (this is a command) in order to stir up love and good works (this is the purpose for the command), 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (this is still part of the command) , as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another (this is still part of the command), and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For (this is the explanation for the commands and purpose for the command) if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.​

• In part, in assembling together as commanded,
  • We are commanded to "consider one another"
    • To "consider one another" means to observe, to contemplate, to think about carefully.
  • We are commanded to exhort, encourage, urge, make strong request of one another
• The purpose for this commanded activity among Christians is to (more literally) provoke, to rouse to activity love and good works
  • This in part is Christian maturity (the opposite of fleshly Christian infancy and the opposite of functioning sinfully).
  • So, we're being commanded to help one another grow up to Christian maturity
  • It's the productivity of Christian maturity from a trained and disciplined walk in Spirit
  • It's growing to increasingly overcome sin in Christ in Spirit
    • This is what is contained in the explanation of verse 26:
      • Within God's Salvation Plan and Process is growth in experiential righteousness, loving & faithful obedience to God, and thus succumbing to deceit and sin less & less over time.
      • And this is the warning in verse 26. Willful sin is not Christianity. If we have received knowledge of the truth and we continue in willful/voluntary (note the human will - human choice), then there is no further sacrifice for such
        • There is only a fearful/frightful/terrible expectation/succession of judgment and fire - an intensity about to eat those who are hostiles/opposed/enemies.

IMView, we don't really know how to do assembly. It's become an entertaining game of cultural, private individualism.

We're each commanded to assist one another to overcome immaturity and sin.

Being too sensitive about disagreement is not part of the process. The context of the love neighbor command in Lev19:18 is proper rebuke of a sinning neighbor. Christianity is in this vein. Spiritual growth to greater self-regulation under Grace in Christ in Spirit, and proper rebuke of one another to assist in the growth to maturity of us all - which is to overcome the willful sin that will most certainly and expectedly be intensely judged.

It is simply not Biblical Love to let this happen to one another. And maturity is marked in part by knowledge of Truth and functionally walking/living in it.

 

[studier]

i’m new to these boards, often i don’t jump in on a topic because there is some kind of argument or personal attacks going on

it’s ashame how badly christians treat each other, we attack each other more often than those in the world, what’s crazy is we attack each other over doctrines that don’t eliminate any of us from the body of christ

It's likely that you will not be too active if you don't jump into disagreement. I do understand and much appreciate your sentiment.

It is a shame, but it is the mark of Christian immaturity and/or the mark of intensity over false gospels/teachings that are prevailing. In such an open and global medium, it's at times quite the challenge to distinguish between the differences.

My suggestion, jump in and work to maintain your integrity, or simply depart (which may be the wiser choice - just a heads-up for you) . If you remain, then help others to maintain their integrity when they are allowing themselves to be dragged into the gutter. It can be just another training ground. Imagine what Jesus and men like Paul were being put through in the battle for establishing and protecting Truth.

 

[MerSee]

i’m new to these boards, often i don’t jump in on a topic because there is some kind of argument or personal attacks going on

it’s ashame how badly christians treat each other, we attack each other more often than those in the world, what’s crazy is we attack each other over doctrines that don’t eliminate any of us from the body of christ

There is only correct/sound doctrine in the Body of Christ.

 

[HeIsHere]

Idolaters are those who make false doctrine their idol.

There isn't a lot of doctrine required when one departs from systematic theology.

Jesus states believe in ME and what I have done for you.

Pretty straight forward, none of this "people can't believe" and systems to explain why people cannot believe etc., etc.,

 

[HeIsHere]

Imagine what Jesus and men like Paul were being put through in the battle for establishing and protecting Truth.

Agree!
The truth is simple, yet radical, that is why it needs protecting.

 

[Mem]

Idolaters are those who make false doctrine their idol.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The charge was that I was not reformed like this said other poster.

I guess it doesn't matter. I've already given my answer which was clearly no, they weren't saved. However, I offered the scripture that shows that God was fair and just and would give them an opportunity to be saved. As Paul said, the law was a protective, umbrella like Guardian that would last until the day of christ.

Hey, at least I was pretty excited for about 45 minutes there. Oh well, better than nothing I suppose.

You did quote my response to the Other poster so I was keeping everything related to that. I was only understanding and dealing with your immediate responses. But if you had more to say or to discuss something in detail I am willing to further that notion. I just was going by the original Op that caused you to offer your viewpoint.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I'd categorize them as idolaters rather than back sliders. But then I'm not sure I have a sure grasp of what exactly constitutes a backslider. As I see it, an idolater does not love God with all he's got, and a backslider is similar but more like an adulterer in he might love God but has a tendency to keep longing for other gods. I guess either way, these have missed.

They most certainly fall into several categories that leads to separation from God

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That's the strategy.

Yes, those whose plan is to say the same thing over and over until accepted tend to hit a wall when they meet someone who knows the truth.

 

[studier]

Yes, those whose plan is to say the same thing over and over until accepted tend to hit a wall when they meet someone who knows the truth.

It always has to be His Word in immediate and then expanded context to be the decider. All should be willing to get as deep into it as they can and let Him speak. I know it can be a challenge, but this is the process.

 

[Rufus]

Oh no Rufus!?!?!?!???!!!!! Are you sure God makes plans and decisions and carries them out without first consulting us??? How dare you suggest such a thing knowing more than a few people are going to get their knickers in a knot thinking about how unfair it all is.

I know. It just AIN'T FAIR, is it? But do those who complain about the lack of fairness on the part of God truly want him to be fair with everyone? If God were to play fair with everyone under the the sun and stars, then no one could be saved; for the righteous Judge would give to all sinners what they rightly deserve! And what possibly could be more fair than that!? Those who claim God is unjust and not playing "fair" should be very careful for what they wish for.

 

[BillyBob]

Sorry, ended up including a lot more verses here than I thought I would - kind of like eating peanuts - once you start it's hard to stop.

Not sure if this will help, but in addition to Rufus's post - which I believe directly goes to answering your question - it might also be useful to note that the above verses were from the old covenant. And unlike the old, the new contains no stipulations whereby God can "find fault" with anyone (He) placed under it.

[Gen 17:7 KJV]
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[Jer 31:31 KJV]
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

[Rom 9:25 KJV]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[Heb 7:18 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Heb 8:8-10 KJV]
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[Heb 8:13 KJV]
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

[Heb 12:24 KJV]
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

How do the verses which speak of God's covenant apply to God's people of today. For example: Should the Christian of today take comfort in the fact that their young children are covenant children, and therefore may be treated somewhat differently than the children of non believers?
This could be a topic of it's own!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

i’m new to these boards, often i don’t jump in on a topic because there is some kind of argument or personal attacks going on

it’s ashame how badly christians treat each other, we attack each other more often than those in the world, what’s crazy is we attack each other over doctrines that don’t eliminate any of us from the body of christ

My friend, I am so sorry that your experience is as it is. Those of us who have had the Love of Christ that the Father has for His Son placed into our hearts . . . these battles are not fun. In fact, they are heartbreaking. Incredibly, I have been told that by backing out of such conversations I am "raging," but in fact, I am not. My heart is broken and bleeds for Christians, perhaps similarly as did Paul's heartbreak and bleeds for his Blessed Jewish brothers and sisters.

As you have discovered, it doesn't matter what we say, even stating that these conversations are terribly wrong and painful, our offenders will actually place the laughing emoji to prove that they enjoy the fact that they cause harm. Such people are not of Christ. They are of the Devil here, masquerading as beacons of light, but in truth, they are imposters bent on causing division amongst the true believers, of which there are very few, both here and at all other forums. In fact, I wonder if some of them are bots, for some show absolutely no emotion in their painful accusations. They show neither pain nor joy in their presentation.

All that I can suggest is that perhaps we create our own forum where such monsters will quickly be shut down and eliminated. A true forum could become popular if it is known as a safe and healthy place for all to come and share, but more importantly, this forum should be safe for new believers. In fact, I would say that new believers should avoid such forums, for there is more evil present in them than anywhere else. This form of evil is not tolerated even in the most corrupt of churches. Yet these forums are filled with evil keyboard-warriors, bent on destroying our unity.

To prove it, watch and see if anyone fives the laughing emoji over what I have offered above. They can't stop themselves from making themselves known, for Satan wants this credit! He wants to hide himself, but so often he cannot!

Who will be the first evil person to find these things funny? Let's wait and see who leaves their mark of advertisement first.

 

[Rufus]

First rightly define "dead". That is your fatal flaw BTW.

Yes, Spiritual Death is separation from God -- and even more precisely separation from the Life of God. In His essence, God is Life. He is pure existence. Adam died because when he sinned the Spirit of Life that God had breathed into him on the 6the day was taken from him. It must be so, otherwise how could Adam have died? Logically, spiritual death presupposes antecedent spiritual life. And Spiritual Life comes only through, by and in the Spirit of Life (Rom 8:2).

Now, you're wondering why did I omit Eve? Well...to include her in with Adam would be presumptuous, as I would be arguing from silence. Scripture doesn't tell us that God breathed the "breath of life" into both of them. He might have....and then again, he might not have. Also, God did not command Eve directly -- only Adam. Adam, therefore, must have informed the woman of what God commanded re the Tree of Good and Evil. And since the command was given directly to Adam, the promise of death for disobedience fell upon him as well.

As far as your appeal to the Ninevites, the Gibeonites, "and endless individuals" you're operating under the assumption that none of these people in the OT believed and repented by the effectual grace of God and that Life was not imparted to them. Since the physically dead have not physical ears to hear, then tell me how do the spiritual dead come by their spiritual ears to hear? If the only way the physically dead can hear is to be supernaturally resurrected , then what make you think it would be any different with the spiritually dead so that they would able to hear? And if it's beyond the natural power of the physically dead to raise themselves in order to hear with their physical ears, then why would you think the spiritually dead would have spiritual power to raise themselves up from death in order to hear with their spiritual ears?

Your man-centered theology is not only theologically impoverished but is totally bankrupt logically, as well.

 

[Rufus]

How do the verses which speak of God's covenant apply to God's people of today. For example: Should the Christian of today take comfort in the fact that their young children are covenant children, and therefore may be treated somewhat differently than the children of non believers?
This could be a topic of it's own!

Now...that's a can of worms! I'm a member of a PCA church which of course subscribes to Covenant Theology. I do not. I see the New Covenant as being NEW -- totally unlike the Old. Therefore, I believe in believers' baptism.

 

[BillyBob]

Now...that's a can of worms! I'm a member of a PCA church which of course subscribes to Covenant Theology. I do not. I see the New Covenant as being NEW -- totally unlike the Old. Therefore, I believe in believers' baptism.

I also am a member of the PCA Church in Anna, Tx. I guess my question was more along the line of a young child who is not yet able to make a confession of faith!