Could the tribulation start this year?

[Absolutely]

Okay, I just saw it, and found it very interesting, with some glaring deficiencies and errors.

1) There is no Pretrib Rapture of the Church.
2) Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told that Adam lived for 33.5 years before he sinned.

So, all of this prediction work is based on extra-Scriptural information, which should be rejected. Nevertheless, I also am an advocate of the Millennial Day theory. And I also think Christ died in 30 AD.

I would agree that God is precise. But He is also precise with His words, and said we cannot know the exact date of Christ's Return, which is the last day of the age.

So the Millennial "days" may be approximate millenniums, or there may be another adjustment in the formula. What I do know is that Christ will not come for his Church before the destruction of Antichrist. He will come for his Church at the same time he comes to destroy Antichrist. Paul says this in 2 Thes 2.

Everything else if very interesting. I appreciate you sharing it.

Incidentally, there are many other numerological coincidences in history, if you care to discuss them elsewhere? I've been studying them for decades!

Just keep ignoring the pretrib rapture verses.

That is what you do.

 

[Absolutely]

Don't mean to be insulting. I talk like I know things because I've been discussing them for 50 years. If you've been talking about something for 50 years, you might sound like you know what you're talking about too!

But I'm as weak as the next guy, and am aware of my deficiencies. I try to remain open even when I'm convinced I'm right. At the very least, I don't wish to lose friendship with brothers and sisters in Christ. So let's not let "who's right" becomes an obstacle to that?

I don't see the "Age of the Gentiles" the way Dispensationalists typically do, as if Israel is the center of the universe. They were just the 1st nation God began to work with to set a model for the rest of the nations. God is impartial, and does not have a favorite nation anymore.

The end of the "age of the Gentiles" refers to the end of world hostility to Israel as a nation called of God. But in reality, there are many nations who have been called of God--Christian nations who, like Israel, have stumbled. I believe they also will be recovered in the Millennium when Christ comes again.

the time of the gentiles is now.
Romans says israel, has been blinded.

The PURPOSE of the gt is to reclaim that wayward wife, Israel, that has gone awhoring.

The rapture and the gt have purpose.

Neither is just abstract dynamics open for framing

Once you discover the foundation, you can precede from there.
Rapture =gathering of the gentile bride= time of gentiles fulfilled

Trib= Jacobs trouble= wayward wife Israel judged and reclaimed.( rev 14)

If you start some other place, you will never properly frame end times.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well here are a few reasons.

1. Tu B'AV is Aug 23 and it is the happiest day on the Jewish calendar, it is the most auspicious day to grab a bride, it is the day that the dead in Christ rose first out of the graves in the wilderness, so many think it is a very good day for the rapture.

Oh, so Aug 23 is the date of a pre-trib rapture??

2. The rapture is likened to when Jesus went up the mount of transfiguration with some of the disciples. This was 6 days after Peter told Jesus He didn't need to go and die on the cross and was rebuked "get thee behind me Satan". If you to put that day on the calendar it would have to be the 9th of AV when the spies returned from spying out the land. Jesus asked who He was and Peter said you are the Christ (that was the good report of Joshua and Caleb) and he also gave the evil report. 6 days after the 9th of AV is Tu B'AV, the 15th of AV.

The mount of transfiguration has nothing to do with the biblical rapture. It was the opportunity for Peter, James and John to see the glorified Christ. Nothing else.

4. This is also exactly 4 years after the 4 year warning given to the US with the solar eclipse over Washington DC. If you know the story where the Lord wants to cut down the fig tree after 3 years and the servant asks for one more year to dung it. This year in the Jewish calendar is "the dung year".

How this solar eclipse over DC a "warning" and where in the Bible can this be linked to?

5. 2021 is exactly 1,335 years from when the mosque on the Dome of the rock was built, the abomination that makes desolation spoken of in Daniel.

6. Jeremiah indicates that the first rapture is in the summer with a prophecy that says "the summer is past and we are not saved".

Nope. The Bible is there about how many raptures there will be. Just one. From 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The "each" refers to the two occurrences of resurrection.
Red words is Christ's resurrection, called the first fruits, because He is the first Person to receive a resurrection body. No one prior to His resurrection received a resurrection body when they were "raised from the dead". Meaning, they all died again.

The blue words refer to every saved person in history. Because every saved person in history, from Adam on, "belong to Him".

So, there is only 1 resurrection for believers. One cannot reasonably argue for the "phased rapture" theory from this verse.

7. Song of Songs chapter 2 indicates that the rapture is right as the figs are still green on the tree.

Rather than trying to guess what verse you have in mind, could you quote the verse and explain it?

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just keep ignoring the pretrib rapture verses.

And, which ones are you referring to?

That is what you do.

Well, please do then.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, and here are some of those commands from Jesus that we need to obey:

Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning—

“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

First we are commanded to watch, and even if you don't know the hour, that day should not come upon you unexpectedly.

Watch
Wait
Be ready.

The foolish virgins watched and waited but were not ready....not prepared...left something out.

 

[Absolutely]

And, which ones are you referring to?


Well, please do then.

You already have them
We went down that road before.

You are simply showing your intent to ignore them.

 

[randyk]

Have you heard that the second coming of Jesus is only a generation away? This was said on the basis that every generation may be the one that will herald his coming or in other words every generation has the opportunity to bring back the King. Once a generation passes, that privilege is passed onto the next generation.

I've heard something like that, and it is based on the belief that Christ can come back imminently, ie "at any time." I don't believe that. Only God knows the day that Christ will come back, and that day is, I believe, already set. Christ cannot come back on just any day.

I don't at all believe all prophecy is complete, leaving nothing left to precede Christ's Coming. Very important is the need to complete the preaching of the Gospel to all nations, as well as the reaction from the satanic world, which will be the rise of Antichristian Europe. Paul taught this in 2 Thes 2.

Dispensationalists like to point to the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus said "in this generation all these things will take place." They believe "this generation" refers to the last generation of the Church, in which Antichrist will rise and the Rapture of the Church will take place.

In reality, Jesus was referring to his own generation in which his apostles, or their contemporaries, would see the coming of Roman armies against Jerusalem, ultimately destroying Jewish worship under the Law.

 

[randyk]

the time of the gentiles is now.
Romans says israel, has been blinded.

The PURPOSE of the gt is to reclaim that wayward wife, Israel, that has gone awhoring.

The rapture and the gt have purpose.

Neither is just abstract dynamics open for framing

Once you discover the foundation, you can precede from there.
Rapture =gathering of the gentile bride= time of gentiles fulfilled

Trib= Jacobs trouble= wayward wife Israel judged and reclaimed.( rev 14)

If you start some other place, you will never properly frame end times.

I don't necessarily disagree with much of that.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Along those lines it seems you might want to rename this thread "that which may not be named"

You quoted me here but you must've meant Blain. He started this thread.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

This verse isn't talking about the occult. It refers to science; and the natural sciences, of which, Solomon was a devotee.

 

[pottersclay]

Don't mean to be insulting. I talk like I know things because I've been discussing them for 50 years. If you've been talking about something for 50 years, you might sound like you know what you're talking about too!

But I'm as weak as the next guy, and am aware of my deficiencies. I try to remain open even when I'm convinced I'm right. At the very least, I don't wish to lose friendship with brothers and sisters in Christ. So let's not let "who's right" becomes an obstacle to that?

I don't see the "Age of the Gentiles" the way Dispensationalists typically do, as if Israel is the center of the universe. They were just the 1st nation God began to work with to set a model for the rest of the nations. God is impartial, and does not have a favorite nation anymore.

The end of the "age of the Gentiles" refers to the end of world hostility to Israel as a nation called of God. But in reality, there are many nations who have been called of God--Christian nations who, like Israel, have stumbled. I believe they also will be recovered in the Millennium when Christ comes again.

The difference is Israel is God's chosen , Israel was created by God. Egypt and Assyria are also mentioned to be restored.
Israel is our time clock. That is why we must understand the parable of the fig tree.
The temple will be rebuilt for king Jesus to fulfill prophecy to sit on the throne of david.
It all has to do with the last 3 appointed times which our Lord will fulfill.
Not only is revelation about a traditional marriage ceremony of the Galilean custom it is also full of the preparation and practice of the last 3 feast of God.
I've posted this several times as a reminder to christians who have a hard time excepting Israel as God's focal point.

Christianity has very deep roots in Judaism. The new testament is very Jewish.
The Lord appointed 12 apostles who were Jewish to show us how to be christian.
God created Israel and their practices. Jesus was and is Jewish. A high priest. A king of a jewish nation.
The appointed times and sabbaths are not Israels times but God's festivals.
Not teaching the Jewish Jesus and trying to christianize the new testament causes many false and misleading theologies. The main one is replacement theology.
These are just a few of my findings which were shown to me after 30 years of study. It shock me but it was the Lord that opened my eyes to these truths. As I searched for the answers for a better understanding.

 

[randyk]

The difference is Israel is God's chosen , Israel was created by God. Egypt and Assyria are also mentioned to be restored.
Israel is our time clock. That is why we must understand the parable of the fig tree.
The temple will be rebuilt for king Jesus to fulfill prophecy to sit on the throne of david.
It all has to do with the last 3 appointed times which our Lord will fulfill.
Not only is revelation about a traditional marriage ceremony of the Galilean custom it is also full of the preparation and practice of the last 3 feast of God.
I've posted this several times as a reminder to christians who have a hard time excepting Israel as God's focal point.

You may not have heard some of this before, but you should know that your info is based in Dispensationalism, which is a popular modern eschatology which contains a number of truths, as well as a number of errors. I can personally buy into some of its truths, but I've spent a lot of time correcting some of its errors.

Israel is indeed a time-clock, but as I said, God is impartial, and chose only to begin with Israel, and not to end with Israel. His goal was to use Israel as a model of a godly nation, in order to reach out to all nations.

The parable of the fig tree was fulfilled in the 1st generation. I'm not a Preterist, but it is true. The focus of the Olivet Discourse was on the 1st generation, even though Jesus was asked what all of this had to do with the endtimes, as well. The question was: how can Jewish worship be destroyed and still bring about God's promises to the nation Israel?

Jesus' answer was that Jewish worship had to be destroyed because the nation Israel had failed under the covenant of Law. But there was hope through his mercy, which transcended the covenant of the Law.

Jesus said that some initial signs would indicate war is coming to Israel, to bring judgment to them. These signs would be like birth pains, indicating an imminent birth, but one that would essentially be still-born. It would be like a developing fig tree--one that would fail to bring forth fruit. It was the time of Israel's Messianic salvation, but it would be short lived for Israel because Israel would reject their own Messiah.

There will be no temple for Israel after this judgment, which took place in 70 AD. Israel would go through the great tribulation of the Jewish Diaspora until their Messiah returns to them. The new temple would be a heavenly temple, the temple of Jesus himself. The OT temple, with its worship, has been washed away.

All of the feasts of the Law have been fulfilled in Jesus. He fulfilled Passover by becoming the Lamb to forgive Israel's failure under the Law--a completely different kind of Passover lamb. He fulfilled Pentecost by establishing the means of the early harvest. And he fulfilled the Feast of Ingathering by establishing the means of the full harvest, through his eternal atonement on the cross.

Christianity has very deep roots in Judaism. The new testament is very Jewish.
The Lord appointed 12 apostles who were Jewish to show us how to be christian.
God created Israel and their practices. Jesus was and is Jewish. A high priest. A king of a jewish nation.
The appointed times and sabbaths are not Israels times but God's festivals.

This is false. The appointed times and sabbaths were given to Israel as part of their required worship. It was estabiished by the Law. Christ fulfilled them apart from the Law so that those who failed under the Law, ie Israel, would be able to transcend the Law and so be saved.

But yes, all this began with the Jewish People. The international Church is built on Jewish teaching, particularly as it was fulfilled in Jesus.

Not teaching the Jewish Jesus and trying to christianize the new testament causes many false and misleading theologies. The main one is replacement theology.
These are just a few of my findings which were shown to me after 30 years of study. It shock me but it was the Lord that opened my eyes to these truths. As I searched for the answers for a better understanding.

I agree with you that Replacement Theology is wrong. However, the Church was intended to transcend the Jewish Law, as also Israel was supposed to. As I said, Dispensationalism has mixed truth and error. It is for us to pick and choose what is correct and what is not, based on biblical teaching.

 

[ZNP]

You quoted me here but you must've meant Blain. He started this thread.

I was referring to your post about the "occult", "he who must not be named" -- Voldemort, based on your post I associated the question on this thread, with your post, with this discussion.

 

[ZNP]

Rather than trying to guess what verse you have in mind, could you quote the verse and explain it?

Thanks.

Sure all the verses and all the explanations have been put in my blog

https://christianchat.com/blogs/summary-of-bible-references-on-the-rapture.197802/page-72

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this poster what verses teach a pretrib rapture.

You already have them
We went down that road before.

We sure did. None of the verses you cite/quote mention anything about Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

You are simply showing your intent to ignore them.

In fact, it is the pretribbers who intend to ignore the verses that refute their views, and ignore the fact that they can't prove a pretrib rapture.

Let me list the problems with your view:

1. no verses show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2. the Bible says there are TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. {this proves there are only TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.}

Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

{Bolded words prove these are tribulation martyrs. Red words refer to resurrection, and blue words clearly state this resurrection is the FIRST one.}

3. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

{this verse discusses the FIRST resurrection and shows TWO "phases" or parts. The first one is Christ Himself, the FIRST human being to be resurrected. The blue words refer to every believer from Adam on, since ALL believers from Adam on "belong to Him". To try to narrow this down to just the "Bride of Christ" or NT believers is futile. The green words tell us WHEN the FIRST resurrection of the saved will occur: "then, when He comes". There are NO verses in the Bible that prophesy that Jesus will come before the trib.

4. There is a verse that clearly states WHEN the rapture occurs. It is at the "coming of our Lord".

2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Red words indicate the Second Advent, at the end of the Trib. Blue words indicate the FIRST resurrection and rapture. The green words refer to the FIRST DAY of the time period called "the Day of the Lord". It begins at the end of the Trib when Christ comes back to earth as King of kings and ends the battle of Armageddon and sets up His 1,000 year reign. The purple words refer to the Trib and the beast, aka antichrist. The words are clear. The Trib and a/c will occur BEFORE the Second Advent and rapture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've heard something like that, and it is based on the belief that Christ can come back imminently, ie "at any time." I don't believe that. Only God knows the day that Christ will come back, and that day is, I believe, already set. Christ cannot come back on just any day.

Pretribbers make a bid deal out of their "imminent" idea. However, Jesus didn't say anything about month or year. He only mentioned that no one knows the "day or hour". iow, no one knows the specific point in time when Jesus will return.

We know from 2 Peter 3:8 how God keeps time:

" But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

So, with this reference, the 2,000 + years since Christ's resurrection can be seen as only a few days in God's timing. That's why Jesus could say "I am coming soon". No problem whatsoever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The difference is Israel is God's chosen , Israel was created by God.

All the nations were "created by God". Acts 17:26

The temple will be rebuilt for king Jesus to fulfill prophecy to sit on the throne of david.

Why does the throne need a temple?

Christianity has very deep roots in Judaism. The new testament is very Jewish.
The Lord appointed 12 apostles who were Jewish to show us how to be christian.

The 12 were chosen to "make disciples and teach them everything I have taught you".

God created Israel and their practices.

Again, all nations were created by God. Israelites were chosen by God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You may not have heard some of this before, but you should know that your info is based in Dispensationalism, which is a popular modern eschatology which contains a number of truths, as well as a number of errors. I can personally buy into some of its truths, but I've spent a lot of time correcting some of its errors.

Since I believe dispensations make better sense than covenant theology, could you explain the errors? Thanks.

There will be no temple for Israel after this judgment, which took place in 70 AD. Israel would go through the great tribulation of the Jewish Diaspora until their Messiah returns to them. The new temple would be a heavenly temple, the temple of Jesus himself. The OT temple, with its worship, has been washed away.

There will be a 3rd temple, one that the beast, aka a/c, will enter and announce that he is Israel's god.

I agree with you that Replacement Theology is wrong.

Amen!

[QUOTE However, the Church was intended to transcend the Jewish Law, as also Israel was supposed to. As I said, Dispensationalism has mixed truth and error. It is for us to pick and choose what is correct and what is not, based on biblical teaching.[/QUOTE]
I look forward to your explanation of dispensation's errors.

Thanks.

 

[Blain]

This verse isn't talking about the occult. It refers to science; and the natural sciences, of which, Solomon was a devotee.

Your right it isn't talking about the occult it is talking about the things of God, don't forget that though it was wisdom by Solomon it was God given wisdom and is God's word.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Your right it isn't talking about the occult it is talking about the things of God, don't forget that though it was wisdom by Solomon it was God given wisdom and is God's word.

What Solomon did was actual science. Mystical powers of numbers and predictions based off them is the pseudo-science of occultism, whether you call it "wisdom from God" or whatever. Recall Acts 8:9-10:

"But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, 'This man is the power of God that is called Great.' "

Simon was supposedly the Great power of God. Acts tell us he was just a magician.