Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Jackson123]

Paul does not say that the Athenians are saved by worshipping the unknown God. He does say that the Athenians are worshiping the same God that he does.

So does Muslim, not save and not worship Christian god

 

[Jackson123]

One may wish to remember though, that both Hindus* and the Athenians worshipped many gods, but Muslims

No one able to worship Jesus and other god in the same time.

The minute you worship other god, you denied Jesus

 

[Jackson123]

Anyway, muslim god is not one it say tawhid, in Indonesian tauhid mean unification, not one

One in Arabic is wahid.

Tawhid (Arabic: توحيد‎ tawḥīd, meaning "unification or oneness of God"; also romanized as Tawheed, Touheed, Tauheed or Tevhid) is the indivisible oneness concept of monotheism in Islam. Tawhid is the religion's central and single most important concept, upon which a Muslim's entire faith rests.

 

[Jackson123]

Well, the Athenians that Paul was talking to we're not worshipping God in a way that I agreed with the Bible 100%. but Paul seems to say that they are worshiping the same God.

Paul God is jesus
So you believe Athenian worship Jesus, and save or in the plan of salvation?

 

[Jackson123]

Now, can a person say that there is no salvation apart from the church and "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator"? I think so. Those two statements do not appear to be

If only church acknowledge the creator than no salvation apart the church consisten with plan for salvation for those that acknowledge the creator is consistence

If Islam include that who acknowledge the creator than it mean there is salvation apart church

And mean inconsistence

 

[Jackson123]

p

No, I believe that it is reasonable to say that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do in the same sense that the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul did.


Paul does not say that the Athenians are saved by worshipping the unknown God. He does say that the Athenians are worshiping the same God that he does.


Sure, in the sense that the Athenians and Paul worshiped the same God!
One may wish to remember though, that both Hindus* and the Athenians worshipped many gods, but Muslims say there is only one God. In that way, I think Muslims are closer to the truth.

*though some Hindus say that they actually worship just one God which manifests itself in many ways.

I am not agree, Muslim worship Paul's God

Like I say Paul's god is jesus, die on the cross

Quran say
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158[3]

It prove Muslim god is not Christian god

 

[Jackson123]

The unknown or what ever god that say Jesus never die on the cross to pay our sin MUST NOT CHRISTIAN GOD

 

[Jackson123]

The unknown or what ever god that say Jesus never die on the cross to pay our sin MUST NOT CHRISTIAN GOD

That is why ccc 841 is lie

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

 

[Dan_473]

And you believe Muslim god share all the characteris of true God, that why Muslim in the plan of salvation?

No, I do not believe believe that the Muslim god shares all the characteristics of the true God.

After Paul tell them who God is they accept and save, I don't think Paul say they don't need to accept Jesus.

That's right! But what about the Athenians who are not present when Paul was preaching? In that moment, some had heard and some had not.

Paul not say
Athenians in the plan of salvation because hold the faith of abraham and share the same god with me.

Right! For starters, it wouldn't have made any sense to talk to the Athenians about Abraham, they had probably never heard of him.

 

[Dan_473]

Different characteristic mean different. In my town there is a man named Jesus, but he is not the Lord Jesus.

He is drug addict.

Muslim God is not Christian God, so Muslim not worship Christian God.

Well, I believe something isn't matching up in your reasoning, there. The same logic could be used about Paul and the Athenians. But Paul says he's going to tell the Athenians about the God they've been worshipping!

 

[Dan_473]

I don't know if Paul say Athenian worship the same god with Paul, if so why Paul try to convert them.

Acts 17: 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I announce to you.

Paul says that he is going to give them more details about what they were already worshipping.

Paul told them about Jesus because the good news of the kingdom is to be preached to everyone, Jew and Greek, theist and atheist!

 

[Dan_473]

Is Christians in the plan of salvation?

I believe Christians are in included in the plan of salvation, yes.

 

[Dan_473]

And what is the definition of complete sentence


Quote

To check that you are writing in complete sentences, try reading your sentences aloud, pausing as indicated by the punctuation. Can each sentence stand alone as a complete thought? If further information is needed to complete the idea, then it is not a complete sentence.

End quote

Muslim is in the plan of salvation.

We know who Muslim are, we know what salvation mean so this sentence is complete, people know what information come from this sentence.

I believe what you wrote was

. Muslim in the plan of salvation

There is no verb, it is not a complete sentence.

If one wishes to use the verb "is", then common usage requires an article before "Muslim".
The Muslim is in the plan of salvation.
Or,
A Muslim is in the plan of salvation.

If you're talking about more than one Muslim, as the lumen gentium does, then I think the sentence you want is
Muslims are in the plan of salvation.

 

[Dan_473]

What do you mean by don't strongly disagree?

You not sure if Protestant save or not, but sure catholic save?

No, I don't agree that God has ordained the system of priests and bishops commonly called the Catholic Church. But I don't strongly disagree with it either.

 

[Dan_473]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The plan of salvation include those who acknowledge creator
It say among whom are Muslim

So Muslim include in the plan of salvation.

This is simple deductive logic

I think what you would want to say is
"Muslims are included in the plan of salvation."
But that sentence has slightly different force or weight from
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

There is more to human language then simply reducing each word to a set of definitions!

 

[Dan_473]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The plan of salvation include those who acknowledge creator
It say among whom are Muslim

So Muslim include in the plan of salvation.

This is simple deductive logic

Now, are saying that all Muslims are included in the plan of salvation? Or are they saying that some Muslims are included in the plan of salvation?

 

[Dan_473]

Let say people that never hear Jesus may save. It doesn't muslim save, because not all Muslim never hear about jesus

Right, not all Muslims may be saved because not all Muslims have never heard about Jesus.

Now, does
Included in the plan of salvation
Mean the same thing as
Saved?

 

[Dan_473]

It is, like people in the Old Testament, but Muslim not hold abraham faith, whether it ever or never hear about jesus

Abraham God never teach sun setting in the muddy spring, so Muslim not hold abraham faith.

Hold abraham faith mean worship abraham god, Muslim not

I don't think
Hold the faith of Abraham
What necessarily have to mean
Believe everything about God that Abraham did.

 

[Dan_473]

Yep, but there is some verses that back B up

Romans 2.

Right!
And following the same logic, a person could also say
There is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church.
And
Muslims are included in the plan of salvation.

But Muslim in the plan of salvation because hold abraham faith is not true

Muslim share the same god with Christian is false

Athenians admid worship unknown God, Muslim know his god name and identified who their god is
His God tell mohammad that Jesus not die on the cross.

So Muslim god oppose the main Christian belief that Jesus die on the cross

The very foundation of Christian faith is jesus die for our sin, so our salvation is by grace

If Jesus not die on the cross than the whole structure of Christianity faith collapse.

What things did the Athenians think about the unknown God? Was he one god of many? A son of Zeus, perhaps?

 

[Dan_473]

Do you believe Muslim hold abraham faith?

In some ways of looking at it, sure!