Catholicism vs Protestantism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Well, the Athenians that Paul was talking to we're not worshipping God in a way that I agreed with the Bible 100%. but Paul seems to say that they are worshiping the same God.
I don't know if Paul say Athenian worship the same god with Paul, if so why Paul try to convert them.
 
Apr 17, 2020
99
41
18
ok
I agree! It seems to me, though, there would be cases where a Muslim could not be really said to have been exposed to the truth about Jesus, thus they cannot truly reject Jesus.
Would you agree?
Maybe. Sounds right. But I think that for all, it comes down to cases. Some things seem right to us that God sees in a much different way - more deeply.. We'll just have to let Him make those calls, He is the judge, not us. I don't like the chances for followers of Muhammad, myself.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I understand LG Not complete law, catholic have ccc or may othe law

But I question the consistency

For example, no verse in the Bible say Jesus is not God.

You can not say no salvation apart from Catholic, than say Muslim is in the plan of salvation
Well, I think it's good to remember that "Muslim is in the plan of salvation" is not quite what the lumen gentium says.
Now, can a person say that there is no salvation apart from the church and "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator"? I think so. Those two statements do not appear to be contradictory to me.

It is ok to say Muslim not save, than say for those that never hear the gospel, there will be special consideration. That's common in the law
For example
Every body not show up tomorrow will be fired
Except for those with health issue.
But say only catholic than say Muslim include is inconsistent
I don't think they "say only catholic than say Muslim include". I understand that's your perception. I mean this gently, but let's be realistic here, Jackson. I think what you are demonstrating here is more your lack of understanding of both English and the issues involved than inconsistency on the part of the writers of the lumen gentium.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
So if one say Muslim save, not under cathegory because never hear about Jesus isn't it?
Sorry, I can't make sense out of that sentence.

But it say Muslim in the plan of salvation because profess the faith of abraham.
No, it doesn't. Please read carefully, does the word "because" occur in that section?

Do you believe Muslim hold the faith of abraham?
Sure, in some ways!
And LG say together with us Muslim adore the one and mercifull god...
Do you believe Christian share the same god with Muslim?
Sure, in some ways!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Example
PreVous law say Jesus is the only savior

The next law can not say Jesus not the only savior or lie

Previous law

A. No salvation apart from Catholic

Next law

B. Muslim in the plan of salvation

Is B mean Muslim not save because not catholic?
Normal people college student or not believe B mean Muslim save
Actually, B is not a complete sentence, so it's hard to say what it means.
Also, college-level English is not necessarily the English that is used by college students. Many college students in the USA are not capable of reading and writing in college-level English.

If one want to say Muslim not save, say so( say Muslim not save because not catholic)
Right, I don't think they want to say "Muslim not save".
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Jackson123 said:
So you believe Protestant save,
Yes, I believe Protestants are saved.
That is a general statement. It doesn't mean that every single Protestant is saved.
Similar to saying, "In the USA, they speak English." It doesn't mean that every single person in the USA speaks English.

...but is official catholic teaching believe Protestant that know about catholic but not partisipate in catholic sacrament save?
No, I believe the official Catholic teaching is that Protestants, or anyone, who knows about the Catholic church in the sense of knowing that their system of priests and bishops is ordained by God, and refuses to participate in the sacraments administered by those priests and bishops, cannot be saved. Because Catholics see salvation as a process, the person in question could always repent and then be on the path to salvation again.

Jackson

So you not agree with catholic in this case don't you?
I don't agree, but I don't strongly disagree either. I'm open to the possibility that what they are saying is true.

Muslim in the plan of salvation, it doesn't say only Muslim that never hear about Jesus, it just like saya Christian in the plan of salvation or Christian save isn't it?
Since we are trying to be careful and logical, I don't think "Muslim in the plan of salvation" is what they actually said, is it?

If they consider ccc 816 the truth, than don't say ccc 841.
I think you are misunderstanding what they are saying.

Bible say Jesus is the only savior, than no other bible writer say Muslim save.
I can't say Muslim save in the light of Jesus the only savior.
This is why I asked you about the possibility of salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus. What answer do you give? Is Jesus the only savior? Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?

So you believe Muslim that save because never hear gospel or hold faith abraham?
Again, I believe that is a false dichotomy. it's possible for a person to not have heard about Jesus and also hold to the faith of Abraham in some sense.
Ccc 841 say Muslim save because hold abraham faith, do you agree?
Does it use the word "because"?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
As I understand it, saying that the plan of salvation also includes is not the same as saying that the person included is saved. This is where the possibility of salvation being a process comes in.
I suspect that there are people on the path to salvation, both Muslims and non-muslims, who don't believe Jesus is God.
Is Christians in the plan of salvation?
 
Apr 22, 2020
8
0
1
Although we don't agree with catholic doctrine, we need to remember that some of us still have catholic family members. We need to be very patient with them, because ultimately, we want to uproot them from the false teachings of the Catholic church.

-God Bless and God speed
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Actually, B is not a complete sentence, so it's hard to say what it means.
And what is the definition of complete sentence


Quote

To check that you are writing in complete sentences, try reading your sentences aloud, pausing as indicated by the punctuation. Can each sentence stand alone as a complete thought? If further information is needed to complete the idea, then it is not a complete sentence.

End quote

Muslim is in the plan of salvation.

We know who Muslim are, we know what salvation mean so this sentence is complete, people know what information come from this sentence.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I don't agree, but I don't strongly disagree either. I'm open to the possibility that what they are saying is true.
What do you mean by don't strongly disagree?

You not sure if Protestant save or not, but sure catholic save?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
If they consider ccc 816 the truth, than don't say ccc 841.
Say, my brother Jackson, let's consider these two statements:
A There is no salvation apart from Jesus.
B Some people who have never heard of Jesus will be saved.
I assume you will agree with A. In the past, I believe you said you didn't know whether B was true or not, so you allow the possibility that B is true.
So, then, I think you agree that it's possible for both A and B to be true at the same time.
Do you follow what I'm saying here?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Since we are trying to be careful and logical, I don't think "Muslim in the plan of salvation" is what they actually said, is it?
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

The plan of salvation include those who acknowledge creator
It say among whom are Muslim

So Muslim include in the plan of salvation.

This is simple deductive logic
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
This is why I asked you about the possibility of salvation for those who have never heard of Jesus. What answer do you give? Is Jesus the only savior? Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus to be saved?
Let say people that never hear Jesus may save. It doesn't muslim save, because not all Muslim never hear about jesus
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Again, I believe that is a false dichotomy. it's possible for a person to not have heard about Jesus and also hold to the faith of Abraham in some sense.
It is, like people in the Old Testament, but Muslim not hold abraham faith, whether it ever or never hear about jesus

Abraham God never teach sun setting in the muddy spring, so Muslim not hold abraham faith.

Hold abraham faith mean worship abraham god, Muslim not
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Jackson123 said:
It say in lumen gentium, people that never hear about Jesus may save


But for Muslim they save because profess abraham faith and adore the same god with catholic

Dan say

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator."
And yes, the first group that talks about after that is Muslims. But it doesn't say that the plan of salvation also includes Muslims *because* they are "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God." Rather, I believe they are listing qualities that Muslims in general have that God may take into account as he judges Muslims, and all humans.


Jackson

So you believe Muslim qualified to be save because hold the faith of abraham?
No, I do not believe that.


And what do you mean by understood different way, give example.
What Catholic understood about to hold abraham faith, what Protestant, way what Muslim way?
Abraham grew up in a land of many gods. Yet, he listened to the voice of the true God and obeyed by leaving the land of his fathers. This indicates faith of some kind, imo.
Abraham is also convinced the God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked, when he bargains with God about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. And, Abraham gives Melchizedek, a priest of the most high God, a tithe.
These actions all demonstrate faith. Whether it's one of these three things that the lumen gentium has in mind or something else, I'm not sure.
Also, remember that the lumen gentium says that Muslims profess the faith of Abraham, which could simply mean that they claim to have the faith of Abraham. It doesn't say they believe as much as Abraham did, or exactly the same things that Abraham did.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Say, my brother Jackson, let's consider these two statements:
A There is no salvation apart from Jesus.
B Some people who have never heard of Jesus will be saved.
I assume you will agree with A. In the past, I believe you said you didn't know whether B was true or not, so you allow the possibility that B is true.
So, then, I think you agree that it's possible for both A and B to be true at the same time.
Do you follow what I'm saying here?
Yep, but there is some verses that back B up

Romans 2.

But Muslim in the plan of salvation because hold abraham faith is not true

Muslim share the same god with Christian is false

Athenians admid worship unknown God, Muslim know his god name and identified who their god is
His God tell mohammad that Jesus not die on the cross.

So Muslim god oppose the main Christian belief that Jesus die on the cross

The very foundation of Christian faith is jesus die for our sin, so our salvation is by grace

If Jesus not die on the cross than the whole structure of Christianity faith collapse.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
So you believe Muslim worship unknown God that is what Muslim save?
No, I believe that it is reasonable to say that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do in the same sense that the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul did.

What happen with Hindu, are they save too because worship unknown God?
Paul does not say that the Athenians are saved by worshipping the unknown God. He does say that the Athenians are worshiping the same God that he does.

Is muslim, Hindu etc share and worship the same god with catholic?
Sure, in the sense that the Athenians and Paul worshiped the same God!
One may wish to remember though, that both Hindus* and the Athenians worshipped many gods, but Muslims say there is only one God. In that way, I think Muslims are closer to the truth.

*though some Hindus say that they actually worship just one God which manifests itself in many ways.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Also, remember that the lumen gentium says that Muslims profess the faith of Abraham, which could simply mean that they claim to have the faith of Abraham. It doesn't say they believe as much as Abraham did, or exactly the same things that Abraham did.
So you believe that to be in the plan of salvation only need profess the faith of abraham?

Remember profess or say themselves as Christian may not Christian, on that I agree with you
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
No, I believe that it is reasonable to say that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do in the same sense that the Athenians were worshiping the same God as Paul did.
So you believe athenians worship Jesus?