Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Dan_473]

Catholic believe Pope is peter successor, but you don't know, so you are one step closer to the thruth my brother, because you not sure catholic main doctrine anymore.

You accept possibility the Church lead by council of apostle?
To me, I believe real Church lead by Holy Spirit.

Well, thanks, but I wouldn't really say it's one step closer, since I think I've believed for years that it's a possibility that Peter had a successor. Or not.


If God doesn't lead the church through a council of apostles and elders, then why did Paul and Barnabas go down to Jerusalem? Why did the apostles and elders gather there?

Why not tell the people in Antioch, "Just read the scriptures and God will give you the right answer personally."

 

[Dan_473]

So Luke say receive all who come, mean your theory that the authory not allow Christian visit Paul invalid.

I didn't say Paul couldn't have Christian visitors, rather that the guard might not have wanted a party.
Big difference as far as security goes between one or two people and a large group.

 

[Dan_473]

Yep, but Protestant not claim their leader is peter successor

True! At the same time, most Protestant denominations will not put a person in charge of a local church unless they have been approved by The authority structure. There is usually some kind of laying on of hands event. So they too have a kind of succession.

 

[Dan_473]

Which nation is he not father of?

Well, one example,

Genesis 9: 18 The sons of Noah who went forth from the ship were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Ham is the father of Canaan.

Genesis 12: 6 Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. The Canaanite was then in the land.

 

[Dan_473]

I believe God did reveal His truth to His chosen people under the old covenant, but I believe He doesn't do that under the new covenant.
I'm not really sure on where the Jews currently stand, my limited understanding tells me that they are still His chosen people but He has blinded them until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Hi ScottyPchristian, welcome to CC!

A lot of people who grow up Catholic end up finding a deep personal relationship with God in a "Bible oriented" church. So I say Amen to that!

I've also met many people who grew up Protestant and ended up Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. But you won't find too many of them here, they tend to be on Catholic Answers or whatever the Eastern Orthodox equivalent is.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, terminology can be difficult. I think Catholics say that everyone with a trinitarian baptism is part of the church. That would include nearly all Protestants. And there is only one Church. And church is synonymous with Body of Christ.


The Catholics would go on to say that the Catholic hierarchy is the visible instrument that God uses to lead the church, the body of Christ.


Your description of the details of salvation is based, I think, on your belief that God reveals his truth to each person individually through his holy spirit as they read the Bible.

You might be interested to know that that is actually my position too, if I have to pick one. However, I have not been able to find that position stated in the Bible.


Are you willing to consider with me the possibility that maybe, just maybe, God reveals his truth to a group?

God does not work in groups. God creates every soul individually and God saves each soul individually. If you have not seen how God works with individuals you have not looked very hard.

Catholics are all about creating an organization. Catholics are not aware that Christ created an organism. You make Jesus unable to care for His sheep. Too much you and not enough Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

God does not work in groups. God creates every soul individually and God saves each soul individually. If you have not seen how God works with individuals you have not looked very hard.

Catholics are all about creating an organization. Catholics are not aware that Christ created an organism. You make Jesus unable to care for His sheep. Too much you and not enough Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I have seen how God works with individuals, but I'm not convinced that's the only way God works.

Maybe it's a matter of you and I seeing different things.


Did God speak to Paul and Barnabas both individually and tell them that they were now apostles? Or did God speak to the church at Antioch which then laid their hands on Paul and Barnabas?


Did God intend for the Church to have no authority structure at all?

For example

Titus 1: 5 I left you in Crete for this reason, that you would set in order the things that were lacking, and appoint elders in every city, as I directed you.

 

[Dan_473]

God does not work in groups. God creates every soul individually and God saves each soul individually. If you have not seen how God works with individuals you have not looked very hard.

Catholics are all about creating an organization. Catholics are not aware that Christ created an organism. You make Jesus unable to care for His sheep. Too much you and not enough Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Another thing I like to ponder.

If it was always God's plan to reveal truth to individuals as they read the Bible, how did that work before the invention of the printing press, when Bibles were super expensive? Or before public education when generally only the elite could read? Or in the many places where the Bible was not available in the native language?

 

[notuptome]

Another thing I like to ponder.

If it was always God's plan to reveal truth to individuals as they read the Bible, how did that work before the invention of the printing press, when Bibles were super expensive? Or before public education when generally only the elite could read? Or in the many places where the Bible was not available in the native language?

Have you ever asked yourself why you only see reasons why God cannot do what He as declared He is going to do? The word of God has been handed down by oral traditions and written on scrolls for millennia. God has given His inspired word to man and God has preserved His word unto this day.

Why do you not trust God? You seem all too willing to trust church fathers and so called saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I find it very difficult to share the Gospel with my family, relatives and friends. Because they're mostly Roman Catholics, who think that I'm trying to be 'holier than thou'.

They remember my life before my conversion, and say things like - you were rebellious towards your parents, you were a drug addict, fornicator, who took advantage of many girls and then dumped them, did crime, violence and many other anti social activities. And now you think you can just put all that behind you and preach to us!

The main problem I find is, everyone has lived a much cleaner life than me. So they say things like, 'I'm happy for you, whatever works for you'. Just keep your new religion to yourself, I don't need it I have my own. They look down their nose at me, so I'm at a disadvantage because my old life.

Just ignore them. Scripture says that often your own family will have issues with you. They did with Jesus. Just keep doing God's will and let those who dont understand roll off your back.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The minimum set of doctrines needed to call yourself a Christian were set forth in the Nicene Creed centuries ago.

I wouldn't say set. It it quite evident within the early creeds written by Paul and writings of early church fathers that the core doctrines was basically set way at the beginning. The Nicene Creed at the First Council of Nicaea in 325. Was basically to reject false teachings of the day.

 

[Jackson123]

Well, thanks, but I wouldn't really say it's one step closer, since I think I've believed for years that it's a possibility that Peter had a successor. Or not.


If God doesn't lead the church through a council of apostles and elders, then why did Paul and Barnabas go down to Jerusalem? Why did the apostles and elders gather there?

Why not tell the people in Antioch, "Just read the scriptures and God will give you the right answer personally."

I don't know if they have written scripture by than

And yes, by than God use apostle and elder, now God use elder, I don't know about apostle.

Do you believe catholic lead by apostle?

 

[garee]

There's quite a lot here for me to digest, I'm not sure if I get all of it.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying you don't agree with praying to Saints and you believe in the sufficiency of Scripture alone.

I have a Roman Catholic background, but I started attending a non denominational bible based Church where the elders try to model the Church on the early apostolic Church. So it's very different from the RCC, where my priest never encouraged me to study the Bible. He said it was his duty to explain the scriptures to us and if the congregation started to study in private, we would all arrive at different conclusions and it would cause division in the Church.

Most people stick to the denomination they were born into, for the sake of harmony. I had no idea how much opposition I would face from my family, friends, relatives and work colleges. They say I've been brainwashed, but the more I study the Bible the more everything makes sense. Christ did say that He didn't come to bring peace into the world, but He came as a sword to divide families.

The parish priest gave me a book about the mainline denominations, it gives a brief history of each one and explains how they started. It was interesting to see that each denomination was founded by a man, except for the RCC which was supposedly founded or started by Christ Himself.

My family thought that the book would wake me up and make me come back to the mother Church, but they were shocked when I refused. My dad took my NKJV Bible to the priest, and he took it and gave my dad a "Good News Bible" as an authorized replacement. I have since purchased another NKJV and I have no plans of returning to the mother Church.

I believe that there are saved people in every denomination, my reasoning is that God deals with individuals. So we're not saved because we belong to a specific denomination.

Hi thanks for sharing that.. great witness to the power of the gospel.

Praying for your family and your new one . What I would call the un-familiar one made know by the word that does work in us.

I agree. Why pray to a saints (necromancy as a abomination ) when as new creatures he has given us the power to hear the father.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[garee]

I don't know if they have written scripture by than

And yes, by than God use apostle and elder, now God use elder, I don't know about apostle.

Do you believe catholic lead by apostle?

They have clearly destroyed the meaning of the word "apostle" just as with the word "saint" .Therefore taking away the unseen authority of God.

The Bible warns of leading by the apostles . Men that others puff up called venerate above that which is written . The voice of the Holy Father not seen made to no effect..

 

[Jackson123]

This is quote from ccc816

Quote
816 The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor
of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

End quote

The sole church of Christ is= the only church of Christ, so other than describe below is not church of Christ,

Catholic is the only church of Christ, is the church entrust to Peter/lead by Peter.


Than Vatican say Muslim in the plan of salvation, is that mean Muslim is s church lead by Peter? Or Catholic proven to be lie, some time say A some time B.

HOW IN THE WORLD REASONABLE PERSON BELIEVE THIS INCONSISTENT DICTRINE?

 

[Jackson123]

They have clearly destroyed the meaning of the word "apostle" just as with the word "saint" .Therefore taking away the unseen authority of God.

The Bible warns of leading by the apostles . Men that others puff up called venerate above that which is written . The voice of the Holy Father not seen made to no effect..

I agree. And the word venerate mean worship

 

[Jackson123]

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

 

[Jackson123]

English Language Learners Definition of heresy
: a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion

Quote

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

End quote

What church is consider heresy in this ccc.?

Heresy mean do not believe with official doctrine catholic

So I am heresy, because I don't believe pope is peter successor, I don't believe pray to Mary or surrender my soul to Mary.

And if official doctrine mean bible, than catholic is heresy, because lie about Peter being in Rome, pray to Mary, Mary elevated to heaven, Mary co redeemer etc

 

[knowhim]

Hi knowhim, welcome to CC!
A question I like to ponder is how the Spirit guides us into all truth. Is it each one of us individually? Or as a group?

The Holy Spirit indwells each individual who is truly born-again. So it starts there and each person is to learn and know the bible for themselves (with the help of the Holy Spirit) so when being in a group you will Know Jesus Christ and His word and will not be deceived by men.

Galatians 5:16: “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

That is what it means to live the Christian life. And we shall remember that Paul is confronting legalism, external ritual and ceremony, and he is saying that legalism can’t save you in the first 4 chapters of Galatians. And in chapter 5, he is saying legalism can’t even sanctify you. You are not made holy by external religious behaviors; you are made holy by walking by the Spirit. It is not external behavior, it is internal power. The Holy Spirit will always point you to Jesus Christ and will never point to any other.

Plow on, plow on....

 

[Jackson123]

The Holy Spirit indwells each individual who is truly born-again. So it starts there and each person is to learn and know the bible for themselves (with the help of the Holy Spirit) so when being in a group you will Know Jesus Christ and His word and will not be deceived by men.

Galatians 5:16: “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

That is what it means to live the Christian life. And we shall remember that Paul is confronting legalism, external ritual and ceremony, and he is saying that legalism can’t save you in the first 4 chapters of Galatians. And in chapter 5, he is saying legalism can’t even sanctify you. You are not made holy by external religious behaviors; you are made holy by walking by the Spirit. It is not external behavior, it is internal power. The Holy Spirit will always point you to Jesus Christ and will never point to any other.

Plow on, plow on....

Yep, some time legalism is lie. Look like Holy from out but evil in.