Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[HeIsHere]

Before the word was written, God spoke it personally. And it was passed verbally. Faith always required believing the word of God. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Speak clearly and fully, a faith, according to the tenets of TULIP which is uniquely, particularly and divinely bequeathed to some, a faith which precedes regeneration.

 

[cv5]

When you use the Habershon Rule: If it’s a fundamental structural truth, the blueprint must be in the Old Testament.


The Reformed "Augustinian" view of Total Depravity—the idea that a "dead" man cannot even respond to the light of the Word—actually collapses when you look at the OT types of fallen man. In the Old Testament, the fallen man is portrayed as sick, leprous, or wandering, but never "non-responsive" to the voice of the Creator.


Here is how the OT types actually "debunk" the Reformed philosophical view of "Total Inability":

1. The Leprosy Type (Leviticus 13-14)

In the Bible, leprosy is the ultimate type of sin. If the Reformed view were correct, the leper would be a "corpse" (unable to act).

• The Reality: The leper is very much alive. He is "unclean," but he is required to cry out, to tear his clothes, and to present himself to the priest.
• The Proof: The Law of the Leper proves that fallen man is "defiled" and "excluded," but he still possesses the faculty to recognize his condition and seek the Priest (the Last Adam).

2. The "Serpent in the Wilderness" (Numbers 21)

This is the type Jesus Himself used to explain salvation (John 3).

• The Reformed Bloviation: They argue a man must be "born again" (regenerated) before he can believe.
• The OT Proof: The Israelites were bitten and "dying" (poisoned), but they were not "dead." God didn't "resurrect" them so they could look; He told them to look so they could live.
• Habershon’s Logic: The power is in the Object (the bronze serpent), not the "ability" of the looker. The fallen man is poisoned, but he can still turn his eyes. If he were "blind and dead," the command to "Look and live" would be a divine mockery.

3. The "Voice in the Garden" (Genesis 3)

Even in the immediate aftermath of the Fall, the pattern is set.

• The Type: Adam is "fallen" and "naked," hiding in the trees.
• The Interaction: When God calls, "Where art thou?", Adam hears and responds. * The Refutation: If Adam were "spiritually deaf and dead" in the Reformed sense, God would have been talking to a stone. Instead, the Fall resulted in fear and hiding, not "total biological/spiritual inability" to hear the Word.

4. The "Kinsman Redeemer" (Ruth)

In the Book of Ruth (a masterclass in typology), Naomi and Ruth are in a state of "total loss."

• The Type: They have no inheritance, no husband, and no future. They are "dead" in terms of their legal standing in Israel.
• The Proof: Ruth has the "will" to glean in the fields. She has the "will" to seek Boaz. Boaz (the type of Christ) doesn't "regenerate" Ruth so she can want him; he responds to her request for redemption.

If he were "blind and dead," the command to "Look and live" would be a divine mockery.

 

[HeIsHere]

How can it be that the "professional pastors" refuse to break ranks and fail to comprehend their folly you may ask?

Probably has much to do with financial security.

At any rate, if a knuckle dragging curmudgeon like me knows better, surely they are without excuse.

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5671510

Very interesting stuff, bookmarked, I would like to read her work since those connections/typology are fascinating and so important.

I do think there is a financial aspect for sure, along with putting up barriers to the Gospel which is the sinister side.

The Gospel they share preach is devoid of any personal application rendering it impotent.

The wait and see methodology..... which is not the Good News of scripture!

 

[cv5]

No inconsistency here. While God has chosen a people to Himself, He employs human agency to effectuate salvation. He sends preachers who share the gospel and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now it has been posited that salvation is equal opportunity and available to every single person who ever lived or will live. History proves this to be a false claim. Throughout history, there have been large swaths of people who never heard the gospel or of Christ. I gave you an example of such a group. It wasn't until 15 centuries after the resurrection of Jesus that the gospel came to the Americas.

"While God has chosen a people to Himself"

Those would be they who "entered in" to the covenant, said "I DO" to the marriage proposal, "entered" the Door, were obedient to become circumcised, painted their doorframe with the Blood, took the initiative to seize the Blue Tassel, gazed upon the Bronze Serpent and so on and so forth.....

 

[cv5]

Very interesting stuff, bookmarked, I would like to read her work since those connections/typology are fascinating and so important.

I do think there is a financial aspect for sure, along with putting up barriers to the Gospel which is the sinister side.

The Gospel they share preach is devoid of any personal application rendering it impotent.

The wait and see methodology..... which is not the Good News of scripture!

Keeping their herd captive thru dread, fear and doubt?
Oh I forgot.....keep them ignorant. Very crucial.

 

[cv5]

Very interesting stuff, bookmarked, I would like to read her work since those connections/typology are fascinating and so important.

I do think there is a financial aspect for sure, along with putting up barriers to the Gospel which is the sinister side.

The Gospel they share preach is devoid of any personal application rendering it impotent.

The wait and see methodology..... which is not the Good News of scripture!

The sanest, most grounded and wisest woman that I have every encountered. And a genius.
These are small volumes PACKED with everything useful and nothing else.
And contains NONE of the hideous Reformed bloviating and pseudo intellectual jawboning that
we have to put up with around here.

 

[HeIsHere]

The sanest, most grounded and wisest woman that I have every encountered. And a genius.
These are small volumes PACKED with everything useful and nothing else.
And contains NONE of the hideous Reformed bloviating and pseudo intellectual jawboning that
we have to put up with around here.

View attachment 284859
View attachment 284860

Available for Kindle awesome, done!!
Thanks.

 

[NightTwister]

Yes, that is called general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Acts 14:16-17, 17:26-27&30, Rom. 1:18-20, Rom. 10:13-18, Col. 1:23, Gal. 3:8, 1Pet. 1:10-12, cf. the Parable of the Talents in Matt. 25:14-30).

Paul also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture. Thus, sinners have no excuse for not seeking God’s salvation or being truthseekers (Matthew 7:7, Hebrews 11:6).

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." -- John 14:6 ESV
There is no wiggle room here. There is and has never been another way. There is no "alternate gospel" apart from Jesus.

 

[sawdust]

You don't know what I'm saying. The gospel is God's means of saving. Those regenerated are still born again by the word of God...1 Peter 1:23. Large swaths of people not hearing the word of God indicates God is not working to save those people. For 15 centuries, God was silent in the Americas. Since, He has moved powerfully.
God is not coming to all mankind in all time periods. When He does draw near,it is for the purpose of saving.

What I bolded is exactly what I thought you were saying because you refuse to understand regeneration does not precede belief. I just needed to hear you put it out there publicly for all to see.

You can play your "you don't understand me" card till the cows come home but I understand far more than you comprehend.

You have a real nice day

 

[cv5]

What I bolded is exactly what I thought you were saying because you refuse to understand regeneration does not precede belief. I just needed to hear you put it out there publicly for all to see.

You can play your "you don't understand me" card till the cows come home but I understand far more than you comprehend.

You have a real nice day

"you don't understand me"

Also "you don't (cannot implied!) understand my beliefs".

 

[sawdust]

"you don't understand me"

Also "you don't (cannot implied!) understand my beliefs".

That was the card my teenagers use to use all the time, then they grew up. Now they have the courtesy (usually) to ask if I might be misunderstanding what they are saying because they know I know them all too well.

Insanity is always hard to understand, we can only acknowledge it exists.

 

[cv5]

That was the card my teenagers use to use all the time, then they grew up. Now they have the courtesy (usually) to ask if I might be misunderstanding what they are saying because they know I know them all too well.

Insanity is always hard to understand, we can only acknowledge it exists.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

If you dare ask @Cameron143 HOW this passage relates to his eschatology and soteriology,
I expect half dozen pages of replies that fail to make the explanation clear.

Shortly thereafter comes the "we don't understand" part......

 

[bytheblood]

God not being unrighteous is the reason why such people could not receive grace. One must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Unless God employed another means than the gospel to bring someone to faith, they remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

" For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Romans 4:3. So, by your response, Abraham has not seen the kingdom of God. The concept of being " born again " was foreign to those before Jesus. Note Nicodemus's ( a "Pharisee", a "ruler of the Jews") response to Jesus " The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, we know thar thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born (again)?" John 3:1-4. Nicodemus believed in Jesus, therefore born again. The old testament saints were saved by believing in God's redemptive plan, despite not having received the promise. " And these all (old testament saints), having obtained a good report THROUGH FAITH, received not the promise. God having some better thing for us, that they(old testament saints) without us should not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:39-40

 

[cv5]

" For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Romans 4:3. So, by your response, Abraham has not seen the kingdom of God. The concept of being " born again " was foreign to those before Jesus. Note Nicodemus's ( a "Pharisee", a "ruler of the Jews") response to Jesus " The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, we know thar thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born (again)?" John 3:1-4. Nicodemus believed in Jesus, therefore born again. The old testament saints were saved by believing in God's redemptive plan, despite not having received the promise. " And these all (old testament saints), having obtained a good report THROUGH FAITH, received not the promise. God having some better thing for us, that they(old testament saints) without us should not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:39-40

@Cameron143 's biblical illiteracy could be remedied by simply opening it and studying what it actually says once in a while on this thread.

Otherwise it's into the weeds as usual.

 

[HeIsHere]

You don't know what I'm saying. The gospel is God's means of saving. Those regenerated are still born again by the word of God...1 Peter 1:23. Large swaths of people not hearing the word of God indicates God is not working to save those people. For 15 centuries, God was silent in the Americas. Since, He has moved powerfully.
God is not coming to all mankind in all time periods. When He does draw near,it is for the purpose of saving.

This is complete conjecture.

You are not God, and you cannot know everything God does and does not do, when and where.

This still does not prove limited atonement, it is mere speculation.

 

[Cameron143]

" For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Romans 4:3. So, by your response, Abraham has not seen the kingdom of God. The concept of being " born again " was foreign to those before Jesus. Note Nicodemus's ( a "Pharisee", a "ruler of the Jews") response to Jesus " The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, we know thar thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born (again)?" John 3:1-4. Nicodemus believed in Jesus, therefore born again. The old testament saints were saved by believing in God's redemptive plan, despite not having received the promise. " And these all (old testament saints), having obtained a good report THROUGH FAITH, received not the promise. God having some better thing for us, that they(old testament saints) without us should not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:39-40

Abraham was saved by grace through faith. God Himself brought His word to Abraham. He was indeed in the kingdom of God. How do we know? Jesus told us in John 8:56.
The concept therefore was not foreign to all. The Bible gives truth progressively, but truth is always truth.

 

[Cameron143]

This is complete conjecture.

You are not God, and you cannot know everything God does and does not do, when and where.

This still does not prove limited atonement, it is mere speculation.

It's not conjecture. Because God has made Himself known to mankind through creation and conscience, there is anthropological evidence of religion in every people group ever discovered and studied. Where is the anthropological evidence of Christianity in the Americas before 1500? It doesn't exist. Why would you continue in error?

And this isn't an argument for limited atonement. It is an answer to the false premise that every person ever born was given equal opportunity to be saved.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's not conjecture. Because God has made Himself known to mankind through creation and conscience, there is anthropological evidence of religion in every people group ever discovered and studied. Where is the anthropological evidence of Christianity in the Americas before 1500? It doesn't exist. Why would you continue in error?

And this isn't an argument for limited atonement. It is an answer to the false premise that every person ever born was given equal opportunity to be saved.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Cameron143]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

But you could find evidence after 1500 though, right?

 

[bytheblood]

Abraham was saved by grace through faith. God Himself brought His word to Abraham. He was indeed in the kingdom of God. How do we know? Jesus told us in John 8:56.
The concept therefore was not foreign to all. The Bible gives truth progressively, but truth is always truth.

I agree with scripture, that the old testament saints are in the kingdom of Heaven, Jesus led captivity captive. The question raised was that you had to be born again to see the kingdom of God. When was Abraham, born before Jesus, born again? " And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God COMETH NOT WITH OBSERVATION: Neither shall they say Lo here! or, Lo there! for , behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21. The kingdom of God is not a place, the kingdom of heaven is. The kingdom of God is where God rules and reigns in individuals, while in the kingdom of heave God rules the universe, " Matthew 11:12 " From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force." If the kingdom of God, who is love, can be taken from you and the bible says that " nothing, even violence, can separate us from the love of God " For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:38-40. When the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of the Father indwells us, then the " kingdom of God " is within us, while the kingdom of Heaven is a physical place. As I said before, the old testament saints who believed in God's redemptive plan, if, like Abraham, they saw that day, or not, they were granted entrance into the kingdom of Heaven, after Jesus sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat.