Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

So called "mundane" choices are permitted we are told BUT

a person cannot, will not and is totally incapable of responding positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus unless uniquely, particularly and divinely regenerated before belief and the exercising of faith.

We have been told this all throughout this thread.

We have also been informed that a person can believe all manner of concepts but not the Good News, this god, has made it so fallen man is unable to believe ...... therefore this god creates and selects those He wants for himself, all the rest of humanity is inconsequential and they fit themselves for destruction... he actually hates them as well.

Imagine being so thoroughly bamboozled by a bunch of clueless religious hacks so as to believe stuff that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. And then utterly reject sound Biblical rebuttals and boilerplate Biblical proofs offered on a silver patter by persons who DO actually know what they are talking about.

Bummer to be a hyper-cal.

 

[GWH]

"MFW is implied by passages that imply IF: the condition of FAITH in Jesus, as in these early chapters of Romans."

Conditional conjunctions are noted in key passages, all of which prove actual free will conclusively,

In English grammar, "IF" introduces a condition that must be met for something else to be true.

Basic structure

If (condition), then (result).

Examples:

If it rains, then the game will be canceled.

If you believe, you will be saved.

If this is true, then that follows.

Even when “then” is not written, it is always implied.

Yes, and even when IF is not stated, it is implied by phrases such as:
"were not willing" - IF they were willing,
"whoever will" - IF they will,
"now choose" - IF they choose,
"everyone who believes" - IF they believe,
"live by faith" - IF they live by faith,
"meant to lead you" - IF they follow the leading,
"hard and impenitent heart" - IF they repent rather than harden their heart,
"each one according to his works" - IF they do godly works,
"those who" - IF they,
etc.

 

[cv5]

Yes, and even when IF is not stated, it is implied by phrases such as:
"were not willing" - IF they were willing,
"whoever will" - IF they will,
"now choose" - IF they choose,
"everyone who believes" - IF they believe,
"live by faith" - IF they live by faith,
"meant to lead you" - IF they follow the leading,
"hard and impenitent heart" - IF they repent rather than harden their heart,
"each one according to his works" - IF they do godly works,
"those who" - IF they,
etc.

that ifἐὰν
(ean)1437: if (a conditional particle used like NG1487, but usually with the Gr. subjunctive mood)contr. from ei and an

The Greek particle ἐάν (Strong's number 1437) is a conditional conjunction meaning "if" (often implying a more probable or expected condition than the simpler εἰ). It is typically followed by a verb in the subjunctive mood.

What is the subjunctive mood?

The subjunctive mood in Ancient Greek expresses:

• Possibility, probability, or contingency (e.g., "if this should happen")
• Exhortation or command (in 1st person: "let us...")
• Purpose ("in order that...")
• Doubt, deliberation, or future intention

It is not about stating facts (that's the indicative mood) but about what might, could, or should occur.

Example with ἐάν (1437):

ἐὰν ἀγαπᾶτέ με, τὰς ἐντολάς μου τηρήσετε. (John 14:15) "If you love me (and you might/could), you will keep my commandments."

• ἐάν + ἀγαπᾶτε (present subjunctive) = ongoing possibility.
• The subjunctive reflects a real but uncertain condition.

In short: ἐάν (1437) introduces a condition using the subjunctive to show something possible or expected, not definite. The subjunctive mood is the "mood of contingency" — what may or should happen, not what is happening.

 

[Kroogz]

So called "mundane" choices are permitted we are told BUT

a person cannot, will not and is totally incapable of responding positively to the Good News of Christ Jesus unless uniquely, particularly and divinely regenerated before belief and the exercising of faith.

We have been told this all throughout this thread.

We have also been informed that a person can believe all manner of concepts but not the Good News, this god, has made it so fallen man is unable to believe ...... therefore this god creates and selects those He wants for himself, all the rest of humanity is inconsequential and they fit themselves for destruction... he actually hates them as well.

Exactly sis!!!

God gave us all the ability to grab a life preserver while drowning, duck behind a mound when fired upon, use a fire extinguisher to save ourselves..........And even OTHERS.

But God forbid we have the ability to believe His Gospel for eternal LIFE..........Insanity, if people would use their GOD GIVEN BRAINS.

 

[Kroogz]

that ifἐὰν
(ean)1437: if (a conditional particle used like NG1487, but usually with the Gr. subjunctive mood)contr. from ei and an

The Greek particle ἐάν (Strong's number 1437) is a conditional conjunction meaning "if" (often implying a more probable or expected condition than the simpler εἰ). It is typically followed by a verb in the subjunctive mood.

What is the subjunctive mood?

The subjunctive mood in Ancient Greek expresses:

• Possibility, probability, or contingency (e.g., "if this should happen")
• Exhortation or command (in 1st person: "let us...")
• Purpose ("in order that...")
• Doubt, deliberation, or future intention

It is not about stating facts (that's the indicative mood) but about what might, could, or should occur.

Example with ἐάν (1437):

ἐὰν ἀγαπᾶτέ με, τὰς ἐντολάς μου τηρήσετε. (John 14:15) "If you love me (and you might/could), you will keep my commandments."

• ἐάν + ἀγαπᾶτε (present subjunctive) = ongoing possibility.
• The subjunctive reflects a real but uncertain condition.

In short: ἐάν (1437) introduces a condition using the subjunctive to show something possible or expected, not definite. The subjunctive mood is the "mood of contingency" — what may or should happen, not what is happening.

And "if" can be a first class condition.........This, IMO, is where much confusion comes in. Because it is a statement of fact, rather than a conditional clause.

Colossians 3:1 (NASB95)

1 Therefore if(and you have) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Ephesians 3:2 (NASB95)
2 if (And you have)indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

Ephesians 4:21 (NASB95)
21 if (and you have)indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

 

[cv5]

And "if" can be a first class condition.........This, IMO, is where much confusion comes in. Because it is a statement of fact, rather than a conditional clause.

Colossians 3:1 (NASB95)

1 Therefore if(and you have) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Ephesians 3:2 (NASB95)
2 if (And you have)indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

Ephesians 4:21 (NASB95)
21 if (and you have)indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

Honestly it's just not that complicated. Unless you are a hyper-cal....

 

[Kroogz]

Honestly it's just not that complicated. Unless you are a hyper-cal....

The loss/reject/walk away/jump out of salvation crowd (armins) love to twist em and use em.

What is worse? The loss of salvation crowd or the calvies?.........I honestly go back and forth to who is worse.

But both of them end up being the same in the VERY end...........Not really saved or loss of salvation........Based upon the works of a man.

 

[sawdust]

What about people who never heard of Christ or the gospel?

Just where are all these people exactly?

 

[Cameron143]

Just where are all these people exactly?

One example is people groups in America before missionaries came.

 

[Kroogz]

Just where are all these people exactly?

Oh, that is when the Holy Spirit went on vacation.

 

[Kroogz]

One example is people groups in America before missionaries came.

We have the answer to this, but you cannot or WILL not listen.

God condemned all........So ALL are savable.

What about the folks who didn't have missionaries? What about people who never heard the Gospel?



Leave the little children alone @Cameron143.

 

[sawdust]

One example is people groups in America before missionaries came.

But your god only reveals Himself to the Elect so what difference does it make?

You are so inconsistent. If there were any Elect amongst them they would be regenerated and believe. Salvation has nothing to do with them.

 

[Cameron143]

But your god only reveals Himself to the Elect so what difference does it make?

You are so inconsistent. If there were any Elect amongst them they would be regenerated and believe. Salvation has nothing to do with them.

Again, this is why it is so difficult to have a real conversation with you. I thought you might have actually been genuinely interested. Instead, you ignore the implications of my answer and misrepresent my beliefs in a bellicose manner.

Grace and peace.

 

[Kroogz]

Again, this is why it is so difficult to have a real conversation with you. I thought you might have actually been genuinely interested. Instead, you ignore the implications of my answer and misrepresent my beliefs in a bellicose manner.

Grace and peace.

In other words:

Darn, I couldn't fool them!

 

[sawdust]

Again, this is why it is so difficult to have a real conversation with you. I thought you might have actually been genuinely interested. Instead, you ignore the implications of my answer and misrepresent my beliefs in a bellicose manner.

Grace and peace.

Once again, make me the problem. It's getting old Cameron.

How have I misrepresented your beliefs?

I have said everything you have said in this thread. You believe God regenerates those he has chosen for Election. What a person thinks, feels, hears has no bearing on salvation as they cannot even hear unless they are first regenerated and if they are regenerated they will believe and if they believe then they must have heard the Gospel.

Your inability or willful denial of your own inconsistencies is the problem here, not my ability to communicate.

grace and peace.

 

[HeIsHere]

In other words:

Darn, I couldn't fool them!

I was thinking the same, but you expressed it oh so well ... and I had a hearty laugh too!!

 

[HeIsHere]

Once again, make me the problem. It's getting old Cameron.

How have I misrepresented your beliefs?

I have said everything you have said in this thread. You believe God regenerates those he has chosen for Election. What a person thinks, feels, hears has no bearing on salvation as they cannot even hear unless they are first regenerated and if they are regenerated they will believe and if they believe then they must have heard the Gospel.

Your inability or willful denial of your own inconsistencies is the problem here, not my ability to communicate.

grace and peace.

When I unknowingly had adopted some Calvinistic ideas into my thinking, the inconsistencies it created just gnawed at me, God gave me no peace until I examined it all from the ground up. I am so thankful I did.

It can happen so easily, read something on Got Questions, CARM or something by Alastair Begg, they are all over the place, pushing this false soteriology.

I really do not understand how people live in that "space" (so to speak).... being set free was like a heavy burden being lifted.
Agree it is not you by any means.

 

[Cameron143]

Once again, make me the problem. It's getting old Cameron.

How have I misrepresented your beliefs?

I have said everything you have said in this thread. You believe God regenerates those he has chosen for Election. What a person thinks, feels, hears has no bearing on salvation as they cannot even hear unless they are first regenerated and if they are regenerated they will believe and if they believe then they must have heard the Gospel.

Your inability or willful denial of your own inconsistencies is the problem here, not my ability to communicate.

grace and peace.

No inconsistency here. While God has chosen a people to Himself, He employs human agency to effectuate salvation. He sends preachers who share the gospel and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now it has been posited that salvation is equal opportunity and available to every single person who ever lived or will live. History proves this to be a false claim. Throughout history, there have been large swaths of people who never heard the gospel or of Christ. I gave you an example of such a group. It wasn't until 15 centuries after the resurrection of Jesus that the gospel came to the Americas.

 

[HeIsHere]

No inconsistency here. While God has chosen a people to Himself, He employs human agency to effectuate salvation. He sends preachers who share the gospel and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Now it has been posited that salvation is equal opportunity and available to every single person who ever lived or will live. History proves this to be a false claim. Throughout history, there have been large swaths of people who never heard the gospel or of Christ. I gave you an example of such a group. It wasn't until 15 centuries after the resurrection of Jesus that the gospel came to the Americas.

Still does not prove limited atonement.

 

[sawdust]

No inconsistency here. While God has chosen a people to Himself, He employs human agency to effectuate salvation. He sends preachers who share the gospel and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But they can't hear unless they are regenerated, you conveniently left that out. And if they are regenerated then they are the Elect and will believe. Human agency is only the afterplay in your book.

No-one heard the Gospel of Christ before He came, there was no good news until Christ conquered death. The Father makes Himself known to people long before they hear of Christ. Those who believe and learn from the Father come to Christ. Jn.6:45.

No-one has an excuse because God has made Himself known to all. Their unbelief is the problem, not the lack of revelation.