I'm not talking about people who hear the gospel. I'm talking about people who never heard the gospel. And the implications of this reality.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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How can it be that the "professional pastors" refuse to break ranks and fail to comprehend their folly you may ask?When I unknowingly had adopted some Calvinistic ideas into my thinking, the inconsistencies it created just gnawed at me, God gave me no peace until I examined it all from the ground up. I am so thankful I did.
It can happen so easily, read something on Got Questions, CARM or something by Alastair Begg, they are all over the place, pushing this false soteriology.
I really do not understand how people live in that "space" (so to speak).... being set free was like a heavy burden being lifted.
Agree it is not you by any means.
Probably has much to do with financial security.
At any rate, if a knuckle dragging curmudgeon like me knows better, surely they are without excuse.
https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5671510
Under your theology there are no implications which is what I am trying to point out to you as an inconsistency so don't try and claim "those who don't hear" as some sort of foul when there is no foul taking place.
According to you, no-one can hear the Gospel unless they are regenerated and given a new heart so all the missionaries in the world will not make an iota of difference if there are no elect among the people and if there are, God will have his way regardless unless you want to claim God can't save His elect unless He uses people to help Him?
I recall learning about the Algonquin practice of tithing their crops and so were suspect to have brought the observance with them during their 'discovery of America' so, I'm not if anyone really has the excuse of ignorance, with special consideration of the witness of Rom 1:20 and especially Jesus' witness of Jn 15:22. I mean, after all, even foreigners knew of Jesus' birth.
How is limited atonement not applicable to any category of sin among all sins of the world but must be to a whole category of people among the whomsoever?
How is limited atonement not applicable to any category of sin among all sins of the world but must be to a whole category of people among the whomsoever?
I asked another poster a question. You asked who I was talking about. I gave you an example. Then I shared that God employs human agency and the gospel to save people. I didn't say God couldn't or doesn't use other means, but that this is the primary means by which He saves. And the point I was making was that throughout history, large swaths of people were not sent preachers bearing the good news. So those making the claim that everyone hears the gospel and has equal opportunity are ignoring history and making a false claim. So perhaps next time you see someone making such a claim, you will correct them.
There are other implications as well.
Grace and peace
God is not unrighteous. He has revealed the knowledge of Him in every person, even through His creation. This is my personal belief. I believe that for those who left this plain of existence without hearing of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the gospel message, just by acknowledging a Supreme being, they will be granted grace.
Yes, that is called general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Acts 14:16-17, 17:26-27&30, Rom. 1:18-20, Rom. 10:13-18, Col. 1:23, Gal. 3:8, 1Pet. 1:10-12, cf. the Parable of the Talents in Matt. 25:14-30).
Paul also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture. Thus, sinners have no excuse for not seeking God’s salvation or being truthseekers (Matthew 7:7, Hebrews 11:6).
God not being unrighteous is the reason why such people could not receive grace. One must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Unless God employed another means than the gospel to bring someone to faith, they remain dead in their trespasses and sins.
Yes, and the means other than the Gospel that was most used in history before the Bible was widely disseminated is general revelation, which Paul indicated serves as a sort of proto-Gospel (Acts 14:16-17, 17:26-27&30, Rom. 1:18-20, Rom. 10:13-18, Col. 1:23, Gal. 3:8, 1Pet. 1:10-12, cf. the Parable of the Talents in Matt. 25:14-30).
On what biblical basis do you draw your conclusion? The shedding of blood was known from Genesis. Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. Abraham heard God's voice and believed. Salvation through a Messiah who shed His blood and was received by grace through faith was present from the beginning.
I know what you were saying Cameron but you don't seem to get my point. Your theology doesn't rest on one hearing the Gospel, it rests on being regenerated so it is completely irrelevant whether swathes of people had the Gospel presented or not.
The Bible/Genesis was not known except by the Jews; the Gentiles were without the OT.
This is just common knowledge.
Yes, welcome to CC. As you will see by perusing this thread, the main debate is between those who believe in TULIP
and we who believe in MFW.
What would you like to chat about?
You don't know what I'm saying. The gospel is God's means of saving. Those regenerated are still born again by the word of God...1 Peter 1:23. Large swaths of people not hearing the word of God indicates God is not working to save those people. For 15 centuries, God was silent in the Americas. Since, He has moved powerfully.
God is not coming to all mankind in all time periods. When He does draw near,it is for the purpose of saving.
Exactly, they try to circumvent the other tenets of TULIP when their is a conflict, let us not be fooled.