Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

If you keep feeding the trolls they will get so fat they will never get out the door.

It's always better they leave.

He won't leave.

Until we all agree to put him on Ignore.
All of us must do it.

.....

 

[sawdust]

He won't leave.

Until we all agree to put him on Ignore.
All of us must do it.

.....

I did it 12 or more pages ago. I think you are the last.

 

[Genez]

The insidious deception of Satan, and what lies at the core of every human being by nature, is the lie that grace empowers you to do what needs to be done to achieve salvation, rather than grace alone saving you. The works doctrine actually aggrandizes man, in that it teaches a man is saved by what he does, not what is done to him and for him.

Read Romans 7:18-25.

The core of every human being is his soul.
Not his flesh, that since the fall of Adam prevents and interferes with the soul being able to live righteously.

Jesus saved your soul.
Not your body.

Drawing Grace momentarily frees your soul from the dominance of the flesh, as to make your soul able to think freely outside the depravity of the body. That does not mean a soul will not choose evil. Only that he will be free to choose evil if he wants to.

Romans 7:18-25​

​

For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. ​

Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law. But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. ​

We got to break it down. Or we are going to assume man is totally depraved by nature, rather than totally influenced by the flesh that leads to our depravity.

If that were not the case? And, our souls are also totally depraved, and not just our flesh?
That would leave God with nothing to save! Jesus saved our soul. Not our body.
Total depravity would leave God with nothing to save in man.

grace and peace ......

 

[Genez]

I did it 12 or more pages ago. I think you are the last.

Done...

Leave him drifting on his raft with nothing to hang onto.

 

[BillyBob]

Mate it has nothing to do with Satan's lies. It is by design people believe. It is how God designed us to live. One either believes the truth when shown or they remain in the dark believing the lie

Every decision we make is based on what we believe. Why you find it so appalling that people should live their lives because they believe as if it is some foreign act to humanity, baffles my mind.

Belief and Trust are both gifts given to God's people, not to mankind as a whole. They come to us through the renewal by the Holy Spirit and are not something to be found in fallen man.

 

[Jordon]

He won't leave.

Until we all agree to put him on Ignore.
All of us must do it.

.....

Err you should fight your own battles and stop trying to force peoples ideas , and stop being the coward.

 

[Jordon]

If you keep feeding the trolls they will get so fat they will never get out the door.

It's always better they leave.

No I'm feeding him you have it backwards as usual

 

[cv5]

The insidious deception of Satan, and what lies at the core of every human being by nature, is the lie that grace empowers you to do what needs to be done to achieve salvation, rather than grace alone saving you. The works doctrine actually aggrandizes man, in that it teaches a man is saved by what he does, not what is done to him and for him.

On the contrary, the children of Israel DEFINITELY were saved by volitional acts of personal faith and obedience at the time of the Exodus. They believed God when He commanded for Blood to be slathered on the doorpost and lintel.

And then they DID IT. And lived by doing so. God graciously OFFERED a means of deliverance, and the believers SEIZED upon it.
According to your theory, they should have been CONDEMNED for doing it.

Your faulty bizarre Reformed pseudo-philosophical pretentions regarding grace are a figment of your vain imagination.

 

[cv5]

Done...

Leave him drifting on his raft with nothing to hang onto.

That person is adding zero signal and all noise to this tread.
Time to tune out buddy.

 

[Jordon]

I refuse to live in, and agree to, your unreality.

And, you keep inviting me back in.

Do you think you are as spiritually mature as you ever can be?
You can be much more mature than you are now...

Your biggest enemy is to think you are already as mature in Christ as one needs to be.
You are going through typical growing pains.

Growing pains = having ones own weaknesses exposed to oneself.

your a ranting bullying coward on the internet bullying people who hides behind the word of God.

 

[sawdust]

Belief and Trust are both gifts given to God's people, not to mankind as a whole. They come to us through the renewal by the Holy Spirit and are not something to be found in fallen man.

Faith is a gift from God which comes with salvation. Believing is something everyone does because that is how God designed us. God calls us to believe (by grace) His word and when we do, that very same word empowers our believing and produces faith, biblical faith, the faith that saves, Heb.11:1 faith.

We have been through it a thousand times, our believing is not what saves us, only the Word of God saves.

God saves believers by His own determination. Believing is how all men live. The question remains who will you believe?

 

[Blain]

If your understanding is contrary to the Spirit, then you need to repent and align it with the Spirit's teaching in Scripture.
However, even then/as we learn GW we should not claim our new understanding is infallible. Humility is a continual need.

I think you misunderstand, my understanding as in my reasoning logic or intellect is contrary as is all of ours to the spirit it is the mind of the flesh but the spirit which speaks to the spirit grants us understanding that is not our own

 

[Jordon]

That person is adding zero signal and all noise to this tread.
Time to tune out buddy.

err dont think so I've added lots of good insight, you and your bullying friend genez love your own opinion. And just want to insult me and anyone who doesn't agree with you, because your a pair of losers

 

[Blain]

Come let us reason together do you not recall those words?

The fact remains God gave us brains to think with and He expects us to use them in all their capacity, reason, imagination, problem solving etc. We are to bring our mind to the word of God in the filling of the Spirit and think with the whole counsel of God. To do such requires an ongoing process of study in learning the word and testing the spirits while staying in fellowship with the Lord.

God appointed teachers for a reason and it wasn't so people could think they can know it all by solely relying on the Spirit to drop pearls of wisdom from heaven.

Except that our reasoning is not how the scriptures are to be understood they are to be understood by the spirit not the mind. where does the scriptures say to us our intellect and minds to understand the scriptures? again as I said lean not on your own understanding that is pretty black and white right there and as far as teachers go well I have only one and that is Jesus himself if I want truth then I don't need to go another person for it I can just go to the source itself which is Christ himself

The spirit speaks to the spirit as the scriptures state it doesn't say the spirit speaks to the mind using human reasoning will only get you human understanding

 

[sawdust]

I think you misunderstand, my understanding as in my reasoning logic or intellect is contrary as is all of ours to the spirit it is the mind of the flesh but the spirit which speaks to the spirit grants us understanding that is not our own

The flesh is contrary, the mind is ignorant and kept in the dark by the flesh. This is why we are to be transformed through the renewing of our minds. The truth of Christ is to replace those things we have learned from the world. To not use your mind is contrary to what God desires in the proving of His will.

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

 

[Blain]

That still small voice is actually the word being recalled to our mind which can only happen as we know the word. Ignorance of the word is what allows any spirit to speak to one's heart and be deceived.

Yes it does that as well but we also are to listen with our hearts not our minds using human logic will not work in understanding the word of God and understanding that our understanding is flawed will allow us to listen and hear with our hearts

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Mate it has nothing to do with Satan's lies. It is by design people believe. It is how God designed us to live. One either believes the truth when shown or they remain in the dark believing the lie

Every decision we make is based on what we believe. Why you find it so appalling that people should live their lives because they believe as if it is some foreign act to humanity, baffles my mind.

another factor is what is stated in Romans 4 ... that faith ≠ works ... a truth that is rejected by some ...

Romans 4:3-5

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And now it appears trust is taken off the table unless a person is born again ... see Post 34,165 ... yikes ...

.

 

[sawdust]

Except that our reasoning is not how the scriptures are to be understood they are to be understood by the spirit not the mind. where does the scriptures say to us our intellect and minds to understand the scriptures? again as I said lean not on your own understanding that is pretty black and white right there and as far as teachers go well I have only one and that is Jesus himself if I want truth then I don't need to go another person for it I can just go to the source itself which is Christ himself

The spirit speaks to the spirit as the scriptures state it doesn't say the spirit speaks to the mind using human reasoning will only get you human understanding

I already gave you the scripture. Come let us reason together says the Lord.

Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,

I repeat, "We are to bring our mind to the word of God in the filling of the Spirit and think with the whole counsel of God."

Where in the above do I say we should lean on our own understanding?

If you don't want to apply your mind to the scriptures, be my guest, but I can assure you the Lord will not renew your thinking if you leave your mind outside the door.

 

[sawdust]

Yes it does that as well but we also are to listen with our hearts not our minds using human logic will not work in understanding the word of God and understanding that our understanding is flawed will allow us to listen and hear with our hearts

Your heart is your mind. It is that part that stores what you treasure. It forms your core thinking. We don't listen to our hearts because what is in them could be wrong. We are to listen to the word and it is the Spirit that brings the word to our minds.

 

[Blain]

Paul said he taught the gospel to the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul taught Jesus Christ and Him crucified ... which is basically the gospel. I believe this was taught in the general congregation.

The preaching of the gospel is needful for growth and maturity. And I believe no matter what level of maturity the believer finds him or herself, we should all desire the sincere milk of the Word that we may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).


Beginning at vs 6, Paul stated he also taught believers who were more spiritually mature:

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [Greek = teleios = of full age]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

These verses speak of spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


Paul then went on to discuss the carnal believers and what he taught to them:

1 Corinthians 3:1-4

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul could not discuss the more spiritual matters with the carnal believers in the church at Corinth ...

Clearly Paul fed the less mature believers and the carnal believers the milk of the Word ... the gospel of Christ.

Clearly Paul fed the more mature believers the meat of the Word ... those matters discussed in 1 Cor 2:6-16 which go beyond the scope of the gospel and/or the milk of the Word.

To equate the gospel of Christ with the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom is improper. Belief in the gospel of Christ is the first step on the path to more and more insight into those things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him ... the deep things of God.

Hope/pray this helps ...

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Ok yeah that makes sense I can agree with all this