Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Without a man’s being made alive by God, he can never see the Kingdom of God. “Jesus said that a pre-requisite, a necessary condition, must be met before someone can enter the Kingdom of God, and that condition is that they must be born again.”
But Christ tells us “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Since it is not possible, that means that man plays a passive role, just as it was in his first creation. God does it all!
But Christ tells us “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Since it is not possible, that means that man plays a passive role, just as it was in his first creation. God does it all!
I'm tired of the hypocrisy. He believes in prevenient grace. This means he believes God must act upon an individual for them to believe. You do not. Tell him why you disagree with him.
You have an Bible laying around? Well dust it off and prove your novel pretentions one way or another.
Without Jesus sacrifice it would not matter what I believe what you believe what anyone believes. No one would be saved. If I choose to reap the benefits of his sacrafice then it is only his sacrafice that saves me.
I'm not talking about Jesus's sacrifice; I'm talking about you.
You, in effect, place yourself in front of Jesus and make Jesus into a fait accompli to your actions:
If have faith and it is from yourself then you will become saved, correct?
If you don't have faith then you won't become saved, correct?
One or the other solely of yourself, correct?
So, whether you become saved or not is solely dependent upon you thereby making yourself your savior.
Jesus would have to save you (or not) based upon what you've done - He would have no choice in the outcome, correct?
If you alone can cause yourself to become saved or not to become saved depending upon your faith, and nothing else can affect that, then beyond dispute, you are your own savior and everything else becomes just a part of the salvation function including Jesus.
@Jackson129
But the biblical truth is that Jesus alone is the Savior not you, so all of the things mentioned above are exclusively of His realm and of His prerogative, not yours (or man's), which makes Him, without question, THE Savior. Those who become saved therefore, are just
the recipients of His choices and actions making Him truly, and in all ways, the Savior.
Those who become saved, become so, by an exceedingly merciful Father through Jesus Christ the Savior who
grants salvation as a completely free gift to those whom He has chosen for it.
You can't talk about salvation without Jesus's sacrifice. It is you that keeps trying to take Jesus's sacrifice out of the equation and make it all about me. I am putting Jesus's sacrifice above all and anything I do or do not believe in, because it is His sacrifice that gives me anything to believe or not believe in.
Jesus not simply die for our sins.
He did so in such a manner as to have our old self killed simultaneously.
For it was our old self that caused us to be separated from God.
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
He is the Word of God. John 1:1
We are to live by faith.
The more sound doctrine we acquire, and store in our spirit and soul?
The more Christ will live through us!
Our faith is the Word made alive in us!
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
grace and peace ......
putting Gods will above ones own desire is key part to the sacrifice in the Bible, in the garden of Gethsemane Jesus said not my will be done but yours, which was showing his submission to the plan of sacrifice.
The sacrifice was made for our benefit no mistake there, and with that we have living hope, which is what we get saved by, we get saved by living hope, the lord ls the living hope , we don't get saved by our own desires, we have to put his will above ours
Think of it this way. You have a car; its tank has been filled with gas. You're the driver. You get to drive it wherever you want to.
Taking that analogy to your view of salvation, the gas in the tank is Jesus's sacrifice. You are the driver. As the driver, it is then
your prerogative to drive it wherever you want to since the tank has gas in it - you are the decision maker. The car doesn't drive itself or insist on where it wants to go. The gas is just a resource to be used or not. That is similar logically to your view of salvation. With it, it is up to you as to whether or not you will become saved, with salvation being a generally available resource as is the gas in the tank, it is available for use at your discretion. That, however, is not how salvation actually works. With true salvation, Christ is the driver, and He filled the tank. It is at His discretion entirely as to where He will go. You are standing beside the road that He is driving down. He may stop to pick you up or He may not. Whether He does or not is entirely up to Him, not you. Now, if you are His family member, He will definitely stop, if you aren't, He definitely won't. He is under no legal requirement to pick up anyone or everyone, only those whom He chooses to pick up which are His family members. No one besides Christ, has any say in whether He stops or not
what was distorted Jordon?
I was not part of the conversation you were having ... other than what I explained to you earlier, I do not know who said what in that discussion.Jordon said:
In the conversation I had with you about Adam and Eve ... I do not know what Magenta was referring to when she responded to BillyBob ... in the other conversation you were having I did not see any comment about ""mothers loving and caring for their children" being "evil"." ... which is why I have been asking her to provide the post ... so I can verify her claim.Jordon said:
Please recall the discussion you and I had concerning the coats God made for Adam and Eve. You never said anything about "mothers loving and caring for their children" being "evil" ... I never said anything about "mothers loving and caring for their children" being "evil".
here is the post to which BillyBob replied ... then Magenta replied to BillyBob ...
The animal was not slain just to "make a coat". The offering of the sacrifice was to remit the sin of Adam and Eve ... without shedding of blood is no remission.
The coats provided to Adam and Eve were to cover the shame of their sin ... God offering sacrifice and covering their shame was a foreshadowing of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The fig leaves Adam and Eve made for themselves (Gen 3:7) represented their fleshly, human attempt to cover their sin and and shame. This attempt was made before God made His offering on their behalf.
The coats God made for Adam and Eve were from the first sacrifice made for sin ... the sacrifice remitted their sin ... the coats covered their shame.
The coats provided to Adam and Eve were to cover the shame of their sin ... God offering sacrifice and covering their shame was a foreshadowing of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The fig leaves Adam and Eve made for themselves (Gen 3:7) represented their fleshly, human attempt to cover their sin and and shame. This attempt was made before God made His offering on their behalf.
The coats God made for Adam and Eve were from the first sacrifice made for sin ... the sacrifice remitted their sin ... the coats covered their shame.
reneweddaybyday said:
Sort of like a free willie thinking his fleshly, human attempt to cover his sin and and shame is sufficient for the job.
Unfortunately free willers think they are clever to present mothers loving and caring for their children as "evil."
In our discussion concerning Adam and Eve, I submitted Post 29,641 to you.
BillyBob then quoted me.
Magenta then quoted BillyBob.
I was never part of the Genez/Kroogz/Jordon discussion. You and I never said anything about "mothers loving and caring for their children" is "evil" ... so I do not know where Magenta got the idea in her head that you or I ever said what she claims.
That is why I am asking her ... where is the statement concerning "mothers loving and caring for their children" is "evil".
Magenta also claims that I "entered this thread breathing out lies and false accusations". I have posted the first 10 submissions made by me in this thread and she has yet to prove her claim is true.
That is why I want to see who said what about "mothers loving and caring for their children" being "evil" ... what was the discussion ... because when she replied to BillyBob, there was no comment made by me or you about "mothers loving and caring for their children" is "evil".
r-i-g-h-t ... Magenta claims that I "entered this thread breathing out lies and false accusations". I have posted the first 10 submissions made by me in this thread and she has yet to prove up her claim.Jordon said:
Here are the 10 posts Jordon ... please show me where I "entered this thread breathing out lies and false accusations"
It goes both ways, Jordon and Magenta is fully aware of that fact.Jordon said:
Would I prefer that there was no animosity between fellow believers? ... yes.
Will that ever become a reality in this lifetime? ... praying.
Will that ever become a reality in new heaven/new earth? ... definitely yes! praise be to God.
.
I see Jesus's sacrafice as the beginning and end point. The point to which all salvation comes from. It matters not how many off shoots we draw from that point. They all go back to Jesus. Without that sacrafice no one could be saved not even the elect. Without that sacrafice there would be nothing to believe in. We would be worshipping we know not what. Salvation would not even be a word in our vocabulary. So it dosent matter if I think we chose to belive or not. That thought would not even be able to be formed in our brain without his sacrafice. I don't know how else to say Jesus is 100% responsible for our salvation irregardless of what we do or do not believe.
I am in total and complete agreement that Jesus is 100% responsible for salvation and I don't think I said nor did I imply otherwise. I was attempting to contrast what I understood to be your view of becoming saved with my view. If you believe that salvation is acquired by a faith that is generated from oneself, then I would say that removes Jesus from the equation insofar as actually becoming saved is concerned. You seem to have said (at least as far as I understood it), that He made salvation available as a general resource to everyone, but the person must utilize it through their faith. I, instead, would say that all parts of salvation are given exclusively by Christ with nothing being outside of it - nothing that man can do to affect outcome; that is, it is all by Christ; nothing whatsoever by/from man - man is but a recipient.
It seems to me at this point we're just going around in circles, so I don't see any value, at least as of now, to continue further.
All I can say is perhaps your taking things to heart to much,
Magenta has been very consistent in showing people's there height of ignorance here in a good way to may I add , and you should be aware that when people are calling people calvinists here there actually calling you evil, so in effect magenta has been called evil thousands of times here by these trashy comments,
Now maybe she was talking about caring for children Herself which is a loving thing but yet people still call her evil, at this stage I'm more concerned as to why you should take it so personally ? And why you or sawdust should think it was aimed at you or her ?
Anyhow what's more important is you ladies should be helping her and correcting these trashy comments from the men ganging up on her in there rightful place, that's how I see it.