Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

If you can show any post in which I said "God treats all people equally all the time" then I might start believing you but you won't be able to do that and it only goes to show you don't actually listen in order to understand what others are saying.

I most certainly do want the right answers which is why I don't come to you for them but listen to those who know what they are talking about and are not filled with their own hubris.

As I said earlier, the answers you so demand we supply have been answered many times throughout this thread, so I'm not hiding anything. It is all on public record.

Your inability to think beyond your own understanding holds you back from any meaningful and genuine discussion with others who disagree with you. It's a pity, because my instincts tell me you have far more to offer.

Have a nice day Rufus.

You have often represented God as being this great cosmic EOE (Equal Opportunity Employer) -- equality for all always. He gives the opportunity to each and every person on planet to exercise their efficacious "freewill" to accept or reject the gospel. God is reduced to a mere opportunity provider who can only act (save) those who want to be saved. God's salvation is 100% contingent upon the will of sinners, and so He only acts after an all-knowing God learns what their choices will be.

 

[Rufus]

The Gospel is enlightenment and no-one here has ever said it is anyone other than God who informs the person as to his state (sinner) and his need (salvation).

You do God a disservice by suggesting He can deliver the Gospel but can't make a man understand what he's hearing. It is either received or it is rejected but God's grace has been effectual in what He set it out to do. To those who believe, more grace is given to effect salvation. To those who don't believe, no more grace and they remain dead in their sins.

So...God's rescuing, saving, effectual grace results in goodness to those who believe, while it at the same time results in evil to those who don't believe. You have God's saving, effectual grace serving a dual purpose. His grace is both "yes" and "no".

 

[Rufus]

Actually I am showing the proper process how it happens to us all.

10 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word


This is not inside them but upon them.

A distinction without a difference! Cornelius, as I have shown in the past, was already a recipient of saving grace since God gifted him with His promised New Covenant grace of the Fear of the Lord which he had before the "Holy Spirit fell on" him and he was saved.

 

[Magenta]

Righteousness Of Christ ~ “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” You were dead in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. The Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it. If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness. We put on the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="BillyBob, post: 5640708, member: 328114"]If we we're not only chosen but also saved and called before time began, then sanctification might occur throughout our life. Then at God's appointed time, we hear and believe His word and place our trust in Christ.

This would certainly (1) support [By Grace] since it occurred before time began. It would (2) eliminate any boasting by man. It would also (3) explain how we were regenerated to new life in Christ and enabled to hear and believe, even though many years could pass before actually being turned to Christ in faith.

Just a thought. . . . [/QUOTE]

Excellent observation re 2Tim 1:9-10, since salvation is a lifelong process, which is what Sanctification is all about! And this understanding comports quite well with 2Thes 2:13 and 1Pet 1:2. God has written the script for every actor's role in God's play on His world stage, which every actor willingly plays. God doesn't twist anyone's arms no matter their divinely decreed eternal destiny. The saints freely seek Christ because He has set the free to do so, while sinners freely seek their own idols to worship, namely SELF!

What's also fascinating about the 2Tim text is that this grace was "given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time", which means that God had placed all his elect in Christ in eternity -- long before anyone did anything good or bad.

Even in my own life, I can look back now in retrospect and see how God's hand was in my life for many years prior to my new birth from above. Even when I had seriously contemplated ditching the bible because I perceived it to contain too many problems therein, God was faithful in his unfailing love for me and would not let me go. He put a particular man (who happened to be a pastor and bible college professor) into my life to dispel my fears and concerns.

 

[Rufus]

Well technically the bible is not all that clear where the spirit resides inside a person but it isn't in the soul itself I know that because a soul is not a spirit and the holy spirit is not a soul he is a spirit there does seem to be a place inside a person where the spirit resides but the soul? no I don't think so

Blain, you might want to read this relatively short article titled: Does God Have a Soul?, and meditate on study the verses it cites.

https://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-have-a-soul.html.

The big $64. question to ask about this particular subject: Is God's soul a product of metaphorical speech, since God has no parts to Him, unlike we mere mortals?

Where does God's Spirit indwell? I would have to say in one's soul or heart -- with perhaps these two being the same thing merely stated differently.

 

[Rufus]

I do not agree with this statement. I believe natural man can believe truth from Scripture ...

Lots of folks who are not born again believe God created the heavens and the earth.

Lots of folks who are not born again believe thou shalt not murder ... thou shalt not steal ... parents are to train their children





in agreement here. Believing God created the heavens and the earth will not result in being born again ...

not committing murder ... not stealing ... parents training children ... while "good" things to do because in alignment with what God tells us we should do ... these things will not result in being born again.

.

This is because men are moral beings by nature, as the Creator is. As such, we, through Conscience and Intuitive Revelation, know right from wrong. But this knowledge doesn't mean that the sons of men have any heart for God and want to know Him.

 

[Rufus]

If people refuse to listen then there is nothing we can do expect pray that God might open their eyes. personally I am proud to be called a slave to Christ

But no FWer would ever want to do that, since the buck of God's salvation doesn't stop with God. It's stops with the sinner's "freewill" because FWers believe that it would be unjust of God to save some, while passing by most. Or it would be unjust of God to "play favorites".

 

[HeIsHere]

A distinction without a difference! Cornelius, as I have shown in the past, was already a recipient of saving grace since God gifted him with His promised New Covenant grace of the Fear of the Lord which he had before the "Holy Spirit fell on" him and he was saved.

Saved before saved
Nowhere in the Bible that this is what Cornelius experienced, completely made up.

 

[Rufus]

The Bible describes Cornelius, a Roman centurion, as a devout man who "feared God" (Acts 10:2),
meaning he worshipped the God of Israel, was generous, prayed regularly, and lived righteously,
representing the "God-fearer" Gentile category; God sent an angel to guide him to Peter, who then
shared the Gospel, leading to Cornelius and his household's conversion. Natural men do not fear God.
They hear the gospel message as foolishness.

The New Covenant promise of God's Fear of the Lord grace accounts for how and why Cornelius worshiped, prayed and lived righteously before God. This drawing grace is part of the sanctification process that LEADS to belief in the Truth (1Pet 1:2; 2Thes 2:13). We should not forget that Cornelius wasn't quite where he needed to be yet spiritually, which is why God sent Peter to him.

Acts 11:13-14
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'
NIV

Therefore, Cornelius and his household were in the process of being saved before God sent Peter to preach the gospel them.

 

[HeIsHere]

This post yet another shameful episode of one verse wonder biblical illiteracy while pushing the bogus Calvinist dogma.

But typical nevertheless.

It is running rampant on this thread, Cornelius saved before he heard the full Gospel even though scripture states otherwise.

Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ Acts 11:13-14

The depth of this deception knows no bounds.

It is wise many have left this thread, no one can be rescued from delusion unless they recognize it and want to be rescued.

In the meantime, as you stated, those who are persuaded by this false or should we say no
Good News, it is by their own choice especially in times like these where truth and solid (non-Calvinist) teachers of scripture are just a few clicks away.

 

[Rufus]

Saved before saved
Nowhere in the Bible that this is what Cornelius experienced, completely made up.

The Fear of the Lord is a process of SAVING GRACE that was promised to only God's Old Covenant people. Cornelius had this grace within his soul before he was actually saved (born again)!

So, tell me, Ms. Wanna-be Context Champion: How did this Gentile wind up with this particular form of saving grace that was promised only to God's Old Covenant people?

 

[Rufus]

It is running rampant on this thread, Cornelius saved before he heard the full Gospel even though scripture states otherwise.

Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ Acts 11:13-14

The depth of this deception knows no bounds.

It is wise many have left this thread, no one can be rescued from delusion unless they recognize it and want to be rescued.

In the meantime, as you stated, those who are persuaded by this false or should we say no
Good News, it is by their own choice especially in times like these where truth and solid (non-Calvinist) teachers of scripture are just a few clicks away.

I, for one, never claimed what I highlighted above. The Fear of the Lord is a PROCESS that inevitably leads to salvation. And this is precisely what happened to Cornelius and his household. The Fear of the Lord was but the beginning of God's saving grace that would eventually culminate in their Justification.

 

[Rufus]

The falling of the Spirit was the baptism with the Spirit, and not the indwelling of the Spirit. The vision given to Peter was for him not to call unclean what God has declared clean. Peter went to Cornelius' house to declare Gentiles clean.

Translate for further clarification: Peter also proved that God doesn't discriminate against anyone on the basis of race or ethnicity.

 

[Rufus]

Eisegesis here, there and everywhere....

View attachment 283064

Another distinction without any differences. Didn't Jesus preach the Gospel of the Kingdom? To "see the kingdom" is to understand it. To see the kingdom is to have spiritual eyes to see and, therefore, to understand.

 

[Rufus]

View attachment 283067
Picture of FWer turning to God. . ., . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Not to mention that they also turn the Gospel on its head!

 

[sawdust]

The argument has never been about volition, but freewill. It's disingenuous now to claim we have volition and not freewill when this is the argument one side has been making all along. It has been the conflation of the 2 that has been argued against the whole time.

What do you think volition is? Volition is your will!

volition

[voh-lish-uhn, vuh-]
Phonetic (Standard)IPA
noun

1. the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing.
   She left of her own volition.
   Synonyms: choice, discretion
2. a choice or decision made by the will.
3. the power of willing; will.

It is by our will we make decisions. To try and claim making a choice is somehow separate from the will is ludicrous. Either our will is bound to the sin nature or it is made free by the grace of God to choose freely, for or against.

There has never been any conflation of the two on my part. I have said many times our volitional choices are made from our will. To say "one chooses to believe of their own volition" is the same as saying "one chooses to believe of their own freewill".

 

[rogerg]

It is running rampant on this thread, Cornelius saved before he heard the full Gospel even though scripture states otherwise.

Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ Acts 11:13-14

The depth of this deception knows no bounds.

It is wise many have left this thread, no one can be rescued from delusion unless they recognize it and want to be rescued.

In the meantime, as you stated, those who are persuaded by this false or should we say no
Good News, it is by their own choice especially in times like these where truth and solid (non-Calvinist) teachers of scripture are just a few clicks away.

Wrong. We have to first be saved in order to truly hear the gospel (spiritually) and take it to heart; otherwise, we are of natural man, spiritually deaf and without spiritual discernment. Ears that hear come from being saved and the Holy Spirit.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


The "shall be saved" is not a statement of change to someone's spiritual status/state in going from unsaved to saved, but of being notified that they will literally be saved from God's wrath on the last day: "shall be saved" is in the future tense; a change from saved to unsaved is immediate not future as-in "are saved" - present tense. Scripture uses the word in both ways.

[Rom 5:9-10 KJV]
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[sawdust]

If I may I believe the freedom spoken of is freedom from the chains of sin the power sin had over people they were in bondage of the law at the time.

We are not entirely free as far as our will because we sumbit out will to the father we become slaves to Christ willingly

If you think freedom is to be without restraint, then what you say is correct.

To try and say the Son, who has set us free indeed, is not real freedom is madness. One is either bound to sin or one is free in Christ. Freedom can only be freedom within the confines of authority. Anything outside authority is chaos.

 

[Cameron143]

What do you think volition is? Volition is your will!

volition

[voh-lish-uhn, vuh-]
Phonetic (Standard)IPA
noun

1. the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing.
   She left of her own volition.
   Synonyms: choice, discretion
2. a choice or decision made by the will.
3. the power of willing; will.

It is by our will we make decisions. To try and claim making a choice is somehow separate from the will is ludicrous. Either our will is bound to the sin nature or it is made free by the grace of God to choose freely, for or against.

There has never been any conflation of the two on my part. I have said many times our volitional choices are made from our will. To say "one chooses to believe of their own volition" is the same as saying "one chooses to believe of their own freewill".

Again, no one has argued that making choices isn't related to the will. The argument is that the will isn't free. It is either slave to sin or slave to righteousness.