Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

Jacob chosen

The moral part 2

Jacob was a man in conflict with Esau's because God's inherent will in Jacob desired blessings from God

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I understand what you are saying ... I just disagree that "might" is the key word in the verse. As stated, I believe "received" is the key ... with a proper understanding of the Greek word for received (déxomai).

.

I honestly do not see how the phrase οὐκ ἐδέξαντο (ouk edexanto, “not receive”) proves anything against Calvinism. This wording simply states their refusal, and it does not, by itself, indicate conditionality or real possibility. Both the 1598 Beza Greek and the NA28 contain the exact same actual words οὐκ ἐδέξαντο (ouk edexanto), meaning that both textual traditions record the same statement that they did not receive the truth. But this form alone is not where the weight of the verse rests.

The real strength of the passage is the Greek construction εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι (eis to sōthēnai), which the King James accurately translates as “that they might be saved.” This construction expresses an intended outcome that was genuinely within reach but never realized because they rejected the love of the truth. It communicates real potential, not inevitability. The English word might is therefore the proper way to capture the nuance embedded in this Greek grammar.

The Greek root δέχομαι (dechomai - shown at BlueLetterBible) can show the general meaning of the verb “to receive,” but in this passage the root alone does not settle anything. What matters is the actual form present in both textual traditions, ἐδέξαντο (edexanto), which simply reports that they did not receive. That form alone does not express conditionality. The surrounding grammar does. The construction εἰς τὸ (eis to) plus the infinitive σωθῆναι (sōthēnai) shows that salvation was truly available but was not realized because they refused the truth offered to them.

Both the 1598 Beza Greek and the NA28 contain the exact same construction εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι (eis to sōthēnai) (“that … might be saved”). This confirms that the King James wording “that they might be saved” (εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι αὐτούς) (eis to sōthēnai autous) reflects the grammar found in both the Received Text line (KJV) and the Critical Text line (Modern Bibles, although I strongly disagree with the Critical Text). The grammatical force of the verse demonstrates that salvation was offered to them as a genuine possibility, and they turned it away.

Beza 1598 Greek:
("that they [might] be saved")



Beza 1598 Greek for 2 Thessalonians 2:
https://archive.org/details/1598-beza-greek-latin-nt/page/n941/mode/2up

NA-28 Greek for 2 Thessalonians 2:
https://www.die-bibel.de/en/bible/NA28/2TH.2

Side Note:

The KJV primarily used the Beza 1598 Greek, except for 20 or so translatable differences.
The Modern Bibles currently use the Nestle and Aland 28 for the Greek New Testament.



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[Jordon]

because pharaoh hardened his heart. pharaoh said he did not know Jehovah Elohim when Moses and Aaron went in and told pharaoh he should let the children of Israel go into the wilderness to hold a feast (Ex 5:1-2).

In Ex 1:8 we read there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. The pharaoh Moses and Aaron were dealing with did not know the history of the God Who brought all the riches to Egypt.

the pharaoh Moses and Aaron were dealing with then instructed the taskmasters to lay more burdens on the children of Israel which were impossible to fulfill and which resulted in beatings.





pharaoh did not glorify God.





I believe God chastens and we harden our own hearts if we do not yield to His chastening.

God punished pharaoh through various plagues. All of Egypt's gods were judged in the plagues; however, pharaoh did not heed the warnings of God and all the people of Egypt suffered drastically in having the firstborn male of man and beast die in the final plague.

Even after the final plague, pharaoh attempted to bring the children of Israel back to Egypt to enslave them. In so doing, more Egyptians drowned in the sea.





God did not cause Joseph's brothers to conspire to kill Joseph. They wanted to kill Joseph because they were envious of Joseph (Gen 37:11).

Reuben talked his brothers out of killing Joseph and persuaded them to throw Joseph into a pit. Reuben wanted to spare Joseph and then come back and get him out of the pit.

God working this evil out to His own glory does not equal God causing Joseph's brothers to do what they did. What they did was sinful and God is not sinful.





agree.

.

Gods inherent will holds value to him in the unbeliever and the believer

Romans 9:18

Now it doesn't not hold that much value to anyone untill they've learned a few things

1 there hearts where once hardened before saved

2 untill they where saved they only then realise how much there heart had been hardened

3 the lord hardens all hearts until they bow down to his inherent will.

Fixed it for you

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

In my previous post in my second paragraph, when I said, "The real strength of the passage is the Greek construction εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι (eis to sōthēnai), which the King James accurately translates as “that they might be saved", I should have included the Greek word αὐτούς (autous) meaning "they."

Sorry about that folks.

May the Lord Jesus bless you all.




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[Jordon]

In my previous post in my second paragraph, when I said, "The real strength of the passage is the Greek construction εἰς τὸ σωθῆναι (eis to sōthēnai), which the King James accurately translates as “that they might be saved", I should have included the Greek word αὐτούς (autous) meaning "they."

Sorry about that folks.

May the Lord Jesus bless you all.




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It may be wise to desire a blessing for yourself first

according to scripture that can only happen from a blessing within

 

[GWH]

it say to expose dark works

So how about we talk about the evil deeds the will of the free will of the flesh does ?

Well, go ahead and expose what you will.

 

[Jordon]

Well, go ahead and expose what you will.

Well did I say exposing a particular sin

I asked should we talk about the free will of the flesh sinning.

It seems you can't.

So moving on how about talking about the free will of promoting torment ?

Do morals have freedom ?

 

[Jordon]

Well, go ahead and expose what you will.

Well did I say exposing a particular sin

I asked should we talk about the free will of the flesh sinning.

It seems you can't.

So moving on how about talking about the free will of the flesh promoting torment ?

Do morals have freedom ?

 

[Jordon]

Unless I'm mistaken all the free will of the flesh wants to talk about here is the ability to choose ?

So how is it, the will of the flesh sins, despite having such a capacity to choose what's right

I thought this should be well up a person Street living by morals

 

[GWH]

Well did I say exposing a particular sin

I asked should we talk about the free will of the flesh sinning.

It seems you can't.

So moving on how about talking about the free will of the flesh promoting torment ?

Do morals have freedom ?

If you don't know what you said, don't ask me.
Ditto re "It seems you can't."
Go ahead and talk about promoting torment.
MFW has responsibility.

 

[Jordon]

If you don't know what you said, don't ask me.
Ditto re "It seems you can't."
Go ahead and talk about promoting torment.
MFW has responsibility.

Who's moral free will lives in the unsaved

 

[Jordon]

promoting torment.
MFW has responsibility.

what do you call constantly assigning tulipism to me. ? In your book seeing as you don't agree with it ?

Let me guess your not promoting me to be seen as you want,


Where's your morals here

 

[Jordon]

It look like moral free will has the freedom to sin.

I mean it's not rocket science.

By your moral free will you have me assigned to tulipism.

@GWH

 

[GWH]

Who's moral free will lives in the unsaved

Every normal human adult has MFW, beginning with A&E and now ending with you and me, assuming we are normal.

I am glad you are a MFWer instead of a tulipist.

 

[Jordon]

Every normal human adult has MFW, beginning with A&E and now ending with you and me, assuming we are normal.

I am glad you are a MFWer instead of a tulipist.

Your ridiculous, moral free will has gone to your head. You can't see the ridiculousness of your concept.

Moral free will is saying to you by my own moral free will I will be moral,

In a nut shell your moral free will has the whole bible worked out,

Including why Adam and eve sinned.


So in other words your saying God created Adam and eve with a moral free will to sin.

 

[Jordon]

I am glad you are a MFWer instead of a tulipist.

Hello brother are you there

Your moral free will has shown it's freedom again.

 

[GWH]

Your ridiculous, moral free will has gone to your head. You can't see the ridiculousness of your concept.

Moral free will is saying to you by my own moral free will I will be moral,
In a nut shell your moral free will has the whole bible worked out,
Including why Adam and eve sinned.
So in other words your saying God created Adam and eve with a moral free will to sin.

In a word and nutshell--yes.

The longer version is this:

The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27).

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

For reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (Matt. 27:46, Psa. 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we may experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (Acts 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken. God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (Matt. 12:39, 24:24, 1Cor. 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy or unwillingness of Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13, cf. Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2).

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. The first people to choose the evil option were named Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:6). Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2Cor. 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (Gal. 6:7-9) or hell.

Only God knows why some people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in Matt. 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (Matt. 12:39, 24:24, John 20:29 & 1Cor. 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per Rev. 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. Rom. 2:5-8 & 2Cor. 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

 

[Jordon]

In a word and nutshell--yes.

The longer version is this:

The essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27).

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

For reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (Matt. 27:46, Psa. 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we may experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (Acts 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken. God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (Matt. 12:39, 24:24, 1Cor. 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy or unwillingness of Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (Luke 11:11-13, cf. Gen. 3:24, Rev. 22:1-2).

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (Gen. 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1John 3:8) and humanity (Rom. 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. The first people to choose the evil option were named Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:6). Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2Cor. 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (Gal. 6:7-9) or hell.

Only God knows why some people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in Matt. 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (Matt. 12:39, 24:24, John 20:29 & 1Cor. 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per Rev. 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. Rom. 2:5-8 & 2Cor. 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

I think all this working out atheism has gone to your head.

To say you have moral free will is right because your not a robot is like an atheist saying I was the clay who the potter created it's not my fault I am who I am

In fact its well know statement of the devil, but I won't go into that for now.

It's really truly amazing the excuses atheism makes for it's self.

God is the creator that makes him your lord and master

He created you how you could walk live love obey see hear the whole nine yards.

Your not saved because you realised you was not a robot.

That's ridiculous.

You don't have moral free will either because your not a robot


Free will is the law of sin and the covenant of the jaw in the unsaved

 

[GWH]

I think all this working out atheism has gone to your head.

To say you have moral free will is right because your not a robot is like an atheist saying I was the clay who the potter created it's not my fault I am who I am
In fact its well know statement of the devil, but I won't go into that for now.
It's really truly amazing the excuses atheism makes for it's self.
God is the creator that makes him your lord and master
He created you how you could walk live love obey see hear the whole nine yards.
Your not saved because you realised you was not a robot.
That's ridiculous.
You don't have moral free will either because your not a robot
Free will is the law of sin and the covenant of the jaw in the unsaved

You are free to think what you will.
The Potter made the clay with MFW, which means sin is the clay's fault--no excuse for ignoring GW/the Potter.
Yes, MFW includes ability to obey love/be saved.

 

[Jordon]

You are free to think what you will.
The Potter made the clay with MFW, which means sin is the clay's fault--no excuse for ignoring GW/the Potter.
Yes, MFW includes ability to obey love/be saved.

I think you'll find he made the clay with his moral will
Only you've added the word your own free will into the mix

Sorry to inform you but your just speculating