And how isn't this just as true with FWT, Arminianism or Pelagianism, since the vast majority of mankind rejects the gospel message, even though their will has been "enabled" by God's ineffectual grace and been set "free"!? Why would a loving God even ordain in eternity such people's existence since He knew that his grace was weak and ineffecive and that at least 90% of hearers will wind up "tortured for all eternity"? How would it not have been better for all these hostile, God-hating enemies of God to have never been born?
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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And how isn't this just as true with FWT, Arminianism or Pelagianism, since the vast majority of mankind rejects the gospel message, even though their will has been "enabled" by God's ineffectual grace and been set "free"!? Why would a loving God even ordain in eternity such people's existence since He knew that his grace was weak and ineffecive and that at least 90% of hearers will wind up "tortured for all eternity"? How would it not have been better for all these hostile, God-hating enemies of God to have never been born?
Especially since his "freewill" just can't choose to walk away from this thread and your posts.
Even if he received his imaginary temporary enablement, I think he's addicted, especially since he already declared that he was leaving this thread and then returned. He just keeps going on and on and on about something he tried to dishonestly portray as "brief."Especially since his "freewill" just can't choose to walk away from this thread and your posts.
Romans 5:2 KJV
"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
According to the verse above (if you believe it) says that we have ACCESS by faith into this grace.
So it is by faith that we gain entry or ACCESS to God's grace.
So it is not as the Calvinist claims.
The Calvinist will give the order like this:
1. God's grace (Election)
2. Regeneration (Born again)
3. Faith (in the gospel)
4. Full Salvation.
The true order is this:
1. Foreknowledge / Election (1 Peter 1:1-2)
2. God's Divine Enlightenment or Enablement to Temporarily Free the Will (God's drawing, conviction of sin, opening of the eyes)
3. Faith (A free will choice is made in choosing the gospel) (Note: They could have equally rejected the gospel if they desired).
4. Salvation (God's grace).
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Really? Then why are the "called" and the "chosen" contrasted as indicated by the "but" in Mat 22:14? Also, you might want to read the Parable of the Banquet in LK 14 wherein there are 3 groups of people mentioned. Have you ever noticed that the ones called externally by the Gospel, never make it to the banquet; but the other two groups who were chosen were compelled to attend?
The reason why people can reject the gospel is clearly spelled out in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
They received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.
A person is saved by believing the truth of the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:10, it actually says "might be saved" which is even supported by the Greek wording.
In fact, half of the KJV translators were Puritans (Calvinists), and this is the reading in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
But the point here is that there is no such thing as "might be saved" in Calvinism.
This is why Jordan said this is a dark verse. Meaning, he cannot explain it.
Not even John Calvin was able to explain it properly.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
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They received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.
A person is saved by believing the truth of the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:10, it actually says "might be saved" which is even supported by the Greek wording.
In fact, half of the KJV translators were Puritans (Calvinists), and this is the reading in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
But the point here is that there is no such thing as "might be saved" in Calvinism.
This is why Jordan said this is a dark verse. Meaning, he cannot explain it.
Not even John Calvin was able to explain it properly.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
.....
Is it then that in your theology those given to Jesus by God may not come to Him even though Jesus said they will come? Your temporary enablement only gives them a choice? They are not convinced which means they believe, due to God's drawing and conviction? One of our other self-exaltung free willers insisted that they became convinced and then were given a choice whether to believe what they already believed. Is that what you believe?
Flesh man cannot or does not understand. That first birth is born alive in physical, not Spiritually of God yet.
That is why born again is needed as only Father God does that. Jesus the Son paved the way, which begins at belief for anyone to get sealed by God to begin to see Eph 1:13 Sealed to see and be sanctified to see new from Father in love and mercy to all, not a few anymore, at least to me presently. I see by God alone those that continue in beleif are sanctified by God for them. God, growing each up that believe God, one day finally say to God "I
believe you God. Then Father and Son step in Spiritually
Seeing God Accepted, forgiven and sealed by God which no one sees until belief to Son is risen for them and thankfully are forgiven by God
Father through his done work done once for us all
Thanks Sister
Volition exists, it just doesn't prove that man's will is free ... and so we counter your heretical views to show that what you believe is contrary to what the Bible actually teaches. Why would you think that making mundane choices has any bearing on the eternal fate of your soul? I know this has been discussed with you before, but you always come back and act like you are completely ignorant of things that have already been said to you.
Now, the Hyper Calvinist believes that a person has full salvation in regeneration (the new birth) before he even exercises faith in the gospel. While it is believed that Spurgeon was not a Hyper Calvinist, he still made statements that go beyond Scripture, such as saying that Calvinism is the gospel. This is false because no Bible verse explicitly teaches that any of the points of TULIP are described as the gospel. The gospel itself is clearly defined in 1 Corinthians 15:1–4.
1 Corinthians 15:1–4 KJV
“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”
Regular Calvinists (not necessarily all of the ones here) teach that regeneration, or the new birth, is the beginning of salvation, and that after a person believes the gospel message, he then experiences what they call full salvation. The problem with this view is that the Bible teaches the opposite order, showing that repentance comes first and then conversion, which means being regenerated or born again.
Acts 3:19 KJV
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.”
Note: While not always the case, repentance (i.e., seeking forgiveness with the Lord with the intention of forsaking sin), and believing the gospel can go together in Scripture.
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1 Corinthians 15:1–4 KJV
“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”
Regular Calvinists (not necessarily all of the ones here) teach that regeneration, or the new birth, is the beginning of salvation, and that after a person believes the gospel message, he then experiences what they call full salvation. The problem with this view is that the Bible teaches the opposite order, showing that repentance comes first and then conversion, which means being regenerated or born again.
Acts 3:19 KJV
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.”
Note: While not always the case, repentance (i.e., seeking forgiveness with the Lord with the intention of forsaking sin), and believing the gospel can go together in Scripture.
.....
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Temporary enablement is one of your fabrications that goes beyond Scripture. Probably one of many.
Another falsehood! Adam, whose will was truly free, determined the fate of his progeny -- just like the Last Adam the Federal Head of His Father's elect determines their eternal destiny (Jn 3:8; 5:21; Lk 10:22).
Your response being yet another infallible proof of typical (and willful) Calvinist biblical illiteracy.
This stubborn recalcitrance in the face of untold efforts at correction.
The FACT is that this statement by Jesus refers to the JEWISH WEDDING CEREMONY (Father-Son-Bride) aspect of salvation, whereby those who believe on Him are UNIONED with Him forever. That is the accurate meaning of this statement.
Jhn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And who is it that may "come"? Whosoever will........!
Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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Calvinists are woefully ignorant of all things Jewish, lacking one of the ***KEYS*** that unlock the doors to knowledge and understanding.
Mat 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Luk 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Calvinists are dead wrong and they DO NOT care either.
Consider the quality of the posts and ask yourself: this clueless lot are to be the leaders among us?
A big mistake and not a new one......
1Ki 13:33
After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.
Your objection is based on a misunderstanding of what I actually believe. I do not hold to Pelagianism, and I do not believe people can come to Christ without God first working in their heart. Some call this Prevenient Grace, but I prefer to call it Divine Enablement or Divine Enlightenment. This refers to the drawing, conviction, and awakening that God brings to a person so that they are able to respond to the gospel. The Bible (KJV) and underlying original languages fully supports this.
John 12:32 says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” The draw is real. It is initiated by God. It awakens the sinner to truth. Yet Scripture never teaches that this drawing forces anyone to believe. Acts 7 shows that men can resist the Holy Ghost. Second Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth. They perish not because God withheld salvation from them, but because they rejected the truth offered to them.
This leads to the question of election. God the Father elects based on His foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1 to 2. This means God chooses those whom He knows will genuinely respond of their own free will to His drawing and His truth. Election is not God forcing anyone to believe. It is God choosing those whom He foresees will freely receive His word.
However, coming to God and remaining with Him are two different matters, and Judas is the clearest example of this. Judas was saved in the beginning. Matthew 10 proves this. When Jesus sends out the twelve, Judas is included in the list of apostles in Matthew 10:2 to 4. Jesus then speaks to all twelve and says, “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves” in Matthew 10:16. Judas is one of the twelve being addressed. Jesus Himself calls Judas a sheep. Jesus never calls the lost sheep. Being called a sheep means Judas belonged to Christ at that time.
Judas also received genuine spiritual authority. Matthew 10:1 says Jesus gave the twelve power against unclean spirits and the ability to heal the sick. Judas preached the kingdom of heaven, ministered to Israel, and served under Christ’s authority. These were true works of God. Judas was a disciple in right standing, following Christ and participating in real ministry.
Only later does Jesus say that Judas fell. In John 17 Jesus says, “Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition.” Judas was originally one of those given to Christ. He was kept for a time and was saved. Yet through his own choices he departed from the faith and became lost. This shows that foreknowledge election does not eliminate free will and does not guarantee perseverance. Judas proves that a person can truly come to Christ, walk with Christ, and be used by Christ, and later choose to turn away.
This completely removes the idea of forced belief. God draws. God convicts. God enlightens. The sinner genuinely sees their need. Yet Scripture still requires repentance and faith.
Acts 3:19 KJV
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.”
Repentance precedes conversion. Conversion is the new birth. Scripture gives the order. Your claim that I believe someone becomes convinced and then must believe what they already believe is simply not true.
Here is what I actually believe.
God draws. God convicts. God enlightens. This is Divine Enablement or Divine Enlightenment.
Man hears the gospel in this awakened state. Faith comes by hearing. Romans 10:17.
Man must repent and believe. When he does, he is converted. Acts 3:19.
If he resists, as Acts 7 shows, he perishes because he receives not the love of the truth. Second Thessalonians 2:10.
None of this is Pelagianism. None of this exalts man. It is simply what the Bible (KJV) and its underlying original languages teach.
While I do not agree with Pelagianism, it is not an error as bad as Calvinism by any means.
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"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, ...." (Genesis 6:3 KJV).
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"World doesn't mean world", you say? I suppose that applies to all 8 or 9 different definitions of the Gr. term "kosmos"? Or just one definition?
@Jordon ... I was thinking about our discussion about your claim that God strengthens fear which I do not believe as shown in the verses I showed you.
And I wanted to share some verses from 1 Peter 5 with you so you can see what it is that God works in us when we are going through trying times ... times when we could feel somewhat fearful.
1 Peter 5:6-11
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
While we are going through our times of affliction, the God of all grace is working within us to perfect, stablish, strengthen, and settle us, and it is God working within us which helps us to resist the adversary as he seeks to devour.
This is just one record of many which plainly states that God works within us as we go through difficult times and it is God Who keeps us safe. I trust God to see me through. And I know you do as well.
.
And I wanted to share some verses from 1 Peter 5 with you so you can see what it is that God works in us when we are going through trying times ... times when we could feel somewhat fearful.
1 Peter 5:6-11
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
While we are going through our times of affliction, the God of all grace is working within us to perfect, stablish, strengthen, and settle us, and it is God working within us which helps us to resist the adversary as he seeks to devour.
This is just one record of many which plainly states that God works within us as we go through difficult times and it is God Who keeps us safe. I trust God to see me through. And I know you do as well.
.