Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[NightTwister]

I understand... and yet I think it is important to clarify what is meant by free will. Many have no idea
what the discussion is even about, and assume that because man has volition and can make choices
that his will is free. This is a philosophical construct not supported by the Bible, for Scripture plainly
states that the natural man is enslaved to sin, and we are set free by Jesus, with the words "taken captive
to do the will of the devil" largely ignored by those who wish to pretend there is no such thing as a natural
man who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. What they do is conflate the
natural man with the spiritual man and ascribe to the former what is only possible of the latter. FWers
love to claim 1 Cor 2:14 does not mean what it says and they rewrite other verses also, such as Jesus
saying that everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A God-blaspheming FWer claimed it meant only
anyone who chooses to sin and those are only atheists, so only atheists are slaves to sin. LOL
So I don't blame you for departing the thread. Their adherence to error is deeply ingrained.

It was the evil attacks from them that drove me away. I was getting pulled into to it and I don't want to be that person. It was better for me to walk away.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

It was the evil attacks from them that drove me away. I was getting pulled into to it and I don't want to be that person. It was better for me to walk away.

So are you saying that God creates most people only so they can be tortured alive forever, with no choice or say in the matter, as if eternal torment were their predetermined fate from the very beginning?

This is what Calvinism demands if one is consistent with its theology.
If you have no problem with God doing this I would say that such a thing is far more morally wrong than what you speak of here.

Please keep in mind that there are many Calvinists who do not have a problem with this doctrine (Which is called either "Reprobation" or "Double Predestination."), If you disagree with it, do you rebuke others for believing it? Are you not appalled or disgusted by such a belief? How is the moral evil you speak of worse than this?






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[Bible_Highlighter]

I hold only to the teachings of the Bible alone and not to any man's teaching.

Update: I do agree with what you stated here, though.



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[reneweddaybyday]

Contextually, I believe this in regards to hypocritical judgment and not that believers can never judge anything.

Jesus says for us to.: "....judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24).

I was following up on Post 27,502 ... I do not believe those referred to as "Free willers" are the only ones who "disregard context when convenient" ... just sayin'

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[rogerg]

I have heard this same statement many times, but repeating it does not make it true.

From my perspective, Calvinism tends to appeal to a particular mindset that is drawn to removing personal responsibility.
The god presented in Calvinism removes that responsibility entirely, and some find comfort in that.

Well, remember that your perspective is wrong in all of its aspects, and your opinion therefore of no value to anyone whatsoever. Because of that, you're not fit to be anyone's else's judge. It's arrogant of you to even begin to think you are worthy to do so.
You should first look to correct yourself and the errors of your beliefs which are legion. Even the most fundamental of your doctrines are totally incorrect upon which you've erroneously built everything else.

I also believe that embracing the Calvinistic system requires a person to suppress the moral awareness that God placed within them. To accept that God creates the vast majority of mankind for the sole purpose of eternal torture in flames, without their choice or involvement, is not a normal conclusion for a tender and biblically trained conscience. It demands that one silence the natural moral compass that God gives to every person.

This is why the doctrines of Calvinism appear so troubling to many Bible believing Christians.
Calvinism portrays a version of God that is foreign to Scripture and inconsistent with His revealed character.

It does not give glory to the gospel by any means.

See my reply above.

 

[Magenta]

It was the evil attacks from them that drove me away. I was getting pulled into to it and I don't want to be that person. It was better for me to walk away.

Yes, I remember seeing you say that, and saw also that one of the FWers laughed at you for your show of restraint. What they find funny and/or agreeable is sometimes quite telling and tragic... like applauding the God blasphemer and sadly they then become one themselves. Another was added to their number just recently. They speak through their maggot infested CDS beard with intentions to insult but what they really do is reject Scripture and impugn the character of God to say He does things "for no good reason."

 

[OLDBUTNEW]

I understand... and yet I think it is important to clarify what is meant by free will. Many have no idea
what the discussion is even about, and assume that because man has volition and can make choices
that his will is free. This is a philosophical construct not supported by the Bible, for Scripture plainly
states that the natural man is enslaved to sin, and we are set free by Jesus, with the words "taken captive
to do the will of the devil" largely ignored by those who wish to pretend there is no such thing as a natural
man who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. What they do is conflate the
natural man with the spiritual man and ascribe to the former what is only possible of the latter. FWers
love to claim 1 Cor 2:14 does not mean what it says and they rewrite other verses also, such as Jesus
saying that everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A God-blaspheming FWer claimed it meant only
anyone who chooses to sin and those are only atheists, so only atheists are slaves to sin. LOL
So I don't blame you for departing the thread. Their adherence to error is deeply ingrained.

@Magenta : Sister, as I've said before: I, and may others here LOVE your Artwork, so please don't stop it!

And another idea is this: What about putting these IDIOTS on IGNORE?! You know: the ones who keep attacking you!!

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Well, remember that your perspective is wrong in all of its aspects, and your opinion therefore of no value to anyone whatsoever. Because of that, you're not fit to be anyone's else's judge. It's arrogant of you to even begin to think you are worthy to do so.
You should first look to correct yourself and the errors of your beliefs which are legion. Even the most fundamental of your doctrines are totally incorrect upon which you've erroneously built everything else.

See my reply above.

That really does not prove that what I said was wrong.
If you follow the logical conclusion of Calvinism it is all about a choice you never make that God forces upon you.
Hence, your responsibility is taken out of your hands.
You are destined to be saved no matter what.
Others are damned beyond any choice they can make.
No choice = No responsibility.
Think about people in this world who ignore responsibility.
Do good things result when a person ignores their good responsibilities in life?



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[Rufus]

Salvation has been settled in God's omniscience, knowing all who will choose to believe.

Salvation is for all.
But, not accepted by all.

We can not know who will believe.
Saul/Paul was murdering Christians at one time before his entering salvation.


How many would have witnessed to Saul before?

If "salvation is for all", then every one on the planet is saved because ALL of God's grace was gifted to everyone in eternity, in Christ and only to the humble.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Well, remember that your perspective is wrong in all of its aspects, and your opinion therefore of no value to anyone whatsoever. Because of that, you're not fit to be anyone's else's judge. It's arrogant of you to even begin to think you are worthy to do so.
You should first look to correct yourself and the errors of your beliefs which are legion. Even the most fundamental of your doctrines are totally incorrect upon which you've erroneously built everything else.
See my reply above.

The Bible says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8).
How can this be if He forces people to love Him?
Do you believe that if a woman is brainwashed through some kind of government programming to love you, do you think that she truly loves you of her own free will choice? Do you think that is real love?
We know that life teaches that love exists between a man and a woman when they both freely choose to love one another.
If it is one sided it can in some cases turn into something dark and unnatural.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

If "salvation is for all", then every one on the planet is saved because ALL of God's grace was gifted to everyone in eternity, in Christ and only to the humble.

When John the baptist says behold the lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, this happened for everyone.
If a baby dies at birth, they are saved by Christ's sacrifice.
But when they grow up and know about sin to be held accountable to sin, they then die spiritually, and need to be born again by accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior.



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[cv5]

That really does not prove that what I said was wrong.
If you follow the logical conclusion of Calvinism it is all about a choice you never make that God forces upon you.
Hence, your responsibility is taken out of your hands.
You are destined to be saved no matter what.
Others are damned beyond any choice they can make.
No choice = No responsibility.
Think about people in this world who ignore responsibility.
Do good things result when a person ignores their good responsibilities in life?

If you follow the logical conclusion of Calvinism it is all about a choice you ***cannot ever*** make that God forces upon you.

Which is exactly the way they prefer things, despite the Bible stating otherwise in overwhelming fashion.
Which is why I designate to this group the following urgent message:

[Mat 25:24 KJV]
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

[Mat 25:25 KJV]
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.

[Mat 25:26 KJV]
His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

[Mat 25:27 KJV]
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

[Mat 25:28 KJV]
Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.

[Mat 25:29 KJV]
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

 

[rogerg]

If you follow the logical conclusion of Calvinism it is all about a choice you never make that God forces upon you.
Hence, your responsibility is taken out of your hands.

And that is your error. It is both simple and obvious. It is the most fundamental of biblical doctrine that you violate, which is that Christ alone is Savior and everything pertaining to salvation having been achieved by Him. Everything. You see man at best as co-savior with Christ, or at worst, Christ subjective to man. And that is in direct contravention to the gospel. Until you recognize Christ as foundational to salvation and the satisfier of all of its requirements, everything else you postulate will be totally wrong. Until you do so,
don't trouble us or try to inflict upon us, you man-made, man-centered gospel.

[1Co 3:11 KJV] 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[cv5]

It was the evil attacks from them that drove me away. I was getting pulled into to it and I don't want to be that person. It was better for me to walk away.

Evil attacks of well founded and sound Biblical scholarship?

 

[Rufus]

TULIP/Calvinism/Reformed doctrine is so very messed up.

Not anywhere near your condition!

 

[Jordon]

@Jordon ... I was thinking about our discussion about your claim that God strengthens fear which I do not believe as shown in the verses I showed you.

And I wanted to share some verses from 1 Peter 5 with you so you can see what it is that God works in us when we are going through trying times ... times when we could feel somewhat fearful.

1 Peter 5:6-11

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


While we are going through our times of affliction, the God of all grace is working within us to perfect, stablish, strengthen, and settle us, and it is God working within us which helps us to resist the adversary as he seeks to devour.

This is just one record of many which plainly states that God works within us as we go through difficult times and it is God Who keeps us safe. I trust God to see me through. And I know you do as well.

.

I can't see how you could miss out the God of all grace is working in us.

Which mercy is working inside us.

We all at the mercy seat of the father


I'll show you how his mercy of strengthening fear is also his eternal will decreed from his will from the beginning.



Psalm 103:17

17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the Lord’s love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children’s children—

Hopefully this should be the last of it, and we can both gallop of into the sunset with this my little mare

 

[Genez]

If "salvation is for all", then every one on the planet is saved because ALL of God's grace was gifted to everyone in eternity, in Christ and only to the humble.

Well?

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, ​

who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10​

There has been nobody on earth that Jesus did not do everything necessary to place them in a position before God to be saved.
Not everyone will desire to to be drawn by God to the finish line. Their choice.

God did all that was needed to save them if they had remained positive to God's drawing them.

 

[Jordon]

Really? Then why are the "called" and the "chosen" contrasted as indicated by the "but" in Mat 22:14? Also, you might want to read the Parable of the Banquet in LK 14 wherein there are 3 groups of people mentioned. Have you ever noticed that the ones called externally by the Gospel, never make it to the banquet; but the other two groups who were chosen were compelled to attend?

AHH all are seen in the light, your at error friend

 

[Rufus]

Your objection is based on a misunderstanding of what I actually believe. I do not hold to Pelagianism, and I do not believe people can come to Christ without God first working in their heart. Some call this Prevenient Grace, but I prefer to call it Divine Enablement or Divine Enlightenment. This refers to the drawing, conviction, and awakening that God brings to a person so that they are able to respond to the gospel. The Bible (KJV) and underlying original languages fully supports this.

John 12:32 says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” The draw is real. It is initiated by God. It awakens the sinner to truth. Yet Scripture never teaches that this drawing forces anyone to believe. Acts 7 shows that men can resist the Holy Ghost. Second Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth. They perish not because God withheld salvation from them, but because they rejected the truth offered to them.

This leads to the question of election. God the Father elects based on His foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1 to 2. This means God chooses those whom He knows will genuinely respond of their own free will to His drawing and His truth. Election is not God forcing anyone to believe. It is God choosing those whom He foresees will freely receive His word.

However, coming to God and remaining with Him are two different matters, and Judas is the clearest example of this. Judas was saved in the beginning. Matthew 10 proves this. When Jesus sends out the twelve, Judas is included in the list of apostles in Matthew 10:2 to 4. Jesus then speaks to all twelve and says, “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves” in Matthew 10:16. Judas is one of the twelve being addressed. Jesus Himself calls Judas a sheep. Jesus never calls the lost sheep. Being called a sheep means Judas belonged to Christ at that time.

Judas also received genuine spiritual authority. Matthew 10:1 says Jesus gave the twelve power against unclean spirits and the ability to heal the sick. Judas preached the kingdom of heaven, ministered to Israel, and served under Christ’s authority. These were true works of God. Judas was a disciple in right standing, following Christ and participating in real ministry.

Only later does Jesus say that Judas fell. In John 17 Jesus says, “Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition.” Judas was originally one of those given to Christ. He was kept for a time and was saved. Yet through his own choices he departed from the faith and became lost. This shows that foreknowledge election does not eliminate free will and does not guarantee perseverance. Judas proves that a person can truly come to Christ, walk with Christ, and be used by Christ, and later choose to turn away.

This completely removes the idea of forced belief. God draws. God convicts. God enlightens. The sinner genuinely sees their need. Yet Scripture still requires repentance and faith.

Acts 3:19 KJV
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.”

Repentance precedes conversion. Conversion is the new birth. Scripture gives the order. Your claim that I believe someone becomes convinced and then must believe what they already believe is simply not true.

Here is what I actually believe.
God draws. God convicts. God enlightens. This is Divine Enablement or Divine Enlightenment.
Man hears the gospel in this awakened state. Faith comes by hearing. Romans 10:17.
Man must repent and believe. When he does, he is converted. Acts 3:19.
If he resists, as Acts 7 shows, he perishes because he receives not the love of the truth. Second Thessalonians 2:10.

None of this is Pelagianism. None of this exalts man. It is simply what the Bible (KJV) and its underlying original languages teach.
While I do not agree with Pelagianism, it is not an error as bad as Calvinism by any means.

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Foreknowledge has NOTHING to do with prescience; for such a belief is heretical. To posit that an eternal, all-knowing God acquires knowledge in temporal reality in the same manner that his finite, fallible creatures do destroys God's attribute of omniscience and puts him in the same class as his creatures. Omniscience means that ALL knowledge instantaneously and simultaneously resides eternally and intuitively in God. This is why the bible itself refutes this heresy.

 

[Rufus]

Well?

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, ​

who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10​

There has been nobody on earth that Jesus did not do everything necessary to place them in a position before God to be saved.
Not everyone will desire to to be drawn by God to the finish line. Their choice.

God did all that was needed to save them if they had remained positive to God's drawing them.

You don't read too swell, do you? If this is the case then everyone on the planet is saved. Must be since God gives grace ONLY to the humble. He resists and detests the PROUD. Plus what motivates God's precious gifts of grace to his chosen people is his LOVE. And we know that the bible tells us very explicitly exactly what kind of meet the conditions of his Love. God detesting the proud of heart would hardly be the impetus behind His grace. But Love is the Mover and Shaker.