Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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HeIsHere said:
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This has been my "spidey sense" but I was not able to articulate the way you have. Bravo!
I dealt with this a lot!!! when I worked with a person who was diagnosed a narcissist.. all the gaslighting was beyond belief.

"walking" into a cult meeting" EXACTLY
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I think what's going on with this type of behavior is that we are dealing with people to whom doctrine is really not that important; the act of knowing God is their primary concern. So doctrine is kind of for the less enlightened folk, who don't understand that the act of knowing God is salvation, and doctrine just kind of gets in the way. So when we ask a question about belief and doctrine, since the act of inwardly knowing God is a personal experience that can't be conveyed in words, and their experience is not based on conformity to the rigors of scripture, then they are unable to forthrightly communicate what it is they actually believe. So we get questions, or confused nonsensical responses, or accusations that we don't understand scripture correctly, etc..

What does scripture say knowing God is? Obeying his voice. As we do that Christ forms within us and we know the true God. Anyone can experience God's spirit, and some people think they are spiritual because they spend time and effort trying to experience the spirit of God. But without following the correct doctrine, ie, obeying his voice, they do not become conformed to the son of God and thereby do not know God, even though their experience convinces that they do.

G1108 γνῶσις gnosis (gnō'-sis) n.
1. knowing (the act).
2. (by implication) knowledge.
 
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Cameron143 said:
If Jesus pays for the sins of all mankind and the Father accepts that payment, how is He just by reneging on the agreement and later punishing people whose sins were paid for and the payment was accepted?
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Payment was not accepted by the people, more gaslighting.
 
Jackson129 said:
Your right I can see that point of view. However you do have to ask for forgiveness of those sins. Mine were not jist automatically forgiven I had to ask. And that injustice question can be used on the other side of the isle as well.

For instance if only the elect were pre destined to got to heaven then the non elect were pre destined to no go there. So when you die and you are standing in front of the man and he asks what is your excuse. And you awnser well all mighty God you pre destined me not to believe is that not an excuse?
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Yes, it is a volitional choice.

Man is accountable before God, according to Romans 1, because man can know of God. While it is true that the elect are chosen in Christ, man fits Himself for destruction.

An analogy can be God choosing the nation Israel to make Himself known to and be a people unto Himself. He did this for Israel, but no other nation.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
the act of knowing God is their primary concern.
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Knowing God equates to attaining to life ever after. It is the basis of salvation and the proper doctrine to hold to.

Matthew11-27.png

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
 
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Cameron143 said:
If Jesus pays for the sins of all mankind and the Father accepts that payment, how is He just by reneging on the agreement and later punishing people whose sins were paid for and the payment was accepted?
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I'm probably not onboard with Limited Atonement. I think this parable explains man's responsibility, yet Jesus' payment made.

The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
 
Jackson129 said:
Sorry but you are not making any sence to me.
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well questions of Cameron has now once again led to Cameron being seen as above everyone else.

Especially when he gets asked about the elect


The bible is clear God knows a persons whole life
 
John17-2-3e2s.png

John 17 verses 2-3 ~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.:)
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I think what's going on with this type of behavior is that we are dealing with people to whom doctrine is really not that important; the act of knowing God is their primary concern. So doctrine is kind of for the less enlightened folk, who don't understand that the act of knowing God is salvation, and doctrine just kind of gets in the way. So when we ask a question about belief and doctrine, since the act of inwardly knowing God is a personal experience that can't be conveyed in words, and their experience is not based on conformity to the rigors of scripture, then they are unable to forthrightly communicate what it is they actually believe. So we get confused nonsensical responses, or accusations that we don't understand scripture correctly, etc..

What does scripture say knowing God is? Obeying his voice. As we do that Christ forms within us and we know the true God. Anyone can experience God's spirit, and some people think they are spiritual because they spend time and effort trying to experience the spirit of God. But without following the correct doctrine, ie, obeying his voice, they do not become conformed to the son of God and thereby do not know God, even though their experience convinces that they do.

G1108 γνῶσις gnosis (gnō'-sis) n.
1. knowing (the act).
2. (by implication) knowledge.
Click to expand...

Yes ... people can convince themselves of all manner of things.

The information in the Good News is His voice to humanity, to yes be obeyed,

With all their litany of verses out of context, reminds of propagandists.
 
from-John14-17etc.png

The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
 
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HeIsHere said:
The information in the Good News is His voice to humanity, to yes be obeyed,
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Do you now believe God actually speaks to people??? Or do you refer to something more generic, since you despise and heap
scorn on the idea of God revealing Himself personally to people, which really tells us that He has not done so with you.

Plus you are one of those who says everyone hears, when Jesus said otherwise.

Scripture says, the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. Your view is, it can. Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit to or obey God. Your view is, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Your view is, it can. Scripture says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he is not. Scripture says the gospel is hid. Your view is, the gospel is not hid. Jesus said not everyone hears. Your view is, everyone hears. Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. Your view is, the flesh can choose to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures say it cannot, to please God and bring forth fruit unto life. Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. Your view is, man has a will that is free. Scripture says no man can come to God unless God draws them. Your view is, divine intervention is not necessary. Your view is, man has everything he needs to come to believe. Scripture makes plain certain things are only known through the Spirit and revelation which you continually denigrate. Scripture shows over and over again from Genesis all the way through to Revelation that God reveals Himself differently from one person to the next. Your view is, God is unfair if He were to reveal Himself in any way differently from one person to the next. Your view is those you disagree with should preach in cemeteries, then you lie about conflating spiritual death with physical death. Your view is to not only blaspheme God yourself, but agree with those who blaspheme God in other ways. Along with other free willers, you come across as despising God's sovereignty, and call Him doing things for His own purposes doing them for no good reason. No matter how you look at it, your theological stance on this issue directly contradicts and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates in a number of places, and you are not likely to change it any time soon because to bring your view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring your whole house of cards down, and demolish your vain self-exalting stance. You cannot have that, since you are far too attached to your ear-tickling doctrine. One could even say you were in love with it. You certainly love it more than the Truth of Scripture.
 
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Cameron143 said:
Yes, it is a volitional choice.

Man is accountable before God, according to Romans 1, because man can know of God. While it is true that the elect are chosen in Christ, man fits Himself for destruction.

An analogy can be God choosing the nation Israel to make Himself known to and be a people unto Himself. He did this for Israel, but no other nation.
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Yes I guess I call it man's responsibility. God laid all the groundwork we just have the one little responsibility. I do not think you can take man's responsibility out of the equation. I guess maybe you are calling it volitional choice.
 
PennEd said:
I'm probably not onboard with Limited Atonement. I think this parable explains man's responsibility, yet Jesus' payment made.

The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Click to expand...
I appreciate the perspective but I just see that as no increase, whereas there is always an increase in those God works in. Also, you haven't dealt with the aspect of injustice.
 
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