Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Magenta]

This teaching is known as Prevenient Grace in Arminianism, though that term can be misleading because the word grace implies salvation, which is not automatic in this moment of enablement. A more accurate description is Temporary Enablement or Enlightenment. Under God’s drawing, the heart and understanding of man are opened so he can comprehend the truth of the gospel and respond in faith of his own free will.

What you call God forcing things on people so they can then operate under their flesh to freely choose with
their incurably wicked heart opposed to the spiritual things of God, what Scripture says the flesh cannot.

Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Consider the possibility that, much like the fictional "Winter Soldier", all that the brainwashed super-determinist needs to hear is a few code words (like predestined, elect, foreodained etc) to trigger them into a psychotic state of heresy mania.

I am SURE that you can identify these traits as well as the persons afflicted on this thread......right?

I actually found your Winter Soldier analogy pretty amusing. Calvinism really can feel like that where certain words like “predestined” or “elect” get dropped and suddenly the full activation sequence kicks in (just like the Winter Soldier is activated by his own code words). Captain America The Winter Soldier is one of the best Marvel movies in my opinion. It delivered that perfect mix of character depth, political thriller tension, and the whole best friend turned assassin struggle. Plus it had some of the coolest action sequences in a Marvel film. The hand to hand combat scenes were incredible. It is right up there for me with the first Avengers movie, Cap: Civil War, Avengers: Endgame, and Fantastic Four First Steps. The way some folks can be conditioned to respond automatically to those trigger words fits almost too well. I am definitely with you on that point (although I deeply care and love all here in the name of Jesus Christ).



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[Magenta]

So God convinces someone of something and then their free will kicks in and they get to decide whether they choose to believe
what they have just been convinced of? No, that really makes no sense: the lack of logic in such a position is almost funny.

1 Corinthians 1 v 30-31 ~ It is because of God that you are in Christ Jesus, Who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 3 v 19-21a, 1 Corinthians 1 v 19 ~ The wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” Therefore, stop boasting in men. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

 

[Magenta]

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 v 6-8 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 v 13-14

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

What you call God forcing things on people so they can then operate under
their flesh to freely choose what Scripture says the flesh cannot.

Thank you for sharing these verses. I agree completely that the flesh is hostile to God. Romans 8 and Galatians 5 show that the natural man, left without God’s illumination, will not submit to Him and cannot please Him. John 1:5 KJV and John 14:17 KJV also point out that darkness does not comprehend the light and that the world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. That is the true condition of man apart from God’s work with His truth.

Romans 8 is simply showing man’s need for God to open the heart and understanding so that a person can accept or reject the gospel of their own free will. This is why God draws all men to Christ and shines His light upon every person. Without that drawing and illumination, we would remain in the flesh. Once God enables a person to understand the gospel, the flesh is no longer a barrier to believing any more than a Calvinist would claim the flesh remains a barrier after God has already regenerated someone. So we both agree the flesh is a real obstacle. The difference is that I believe God overcomes that obstacle by drawing and enlightening every person through the gospel so that they can genuinely respond to Christ in faith, not by regenerating only a select few before they believe.

Faith is never something a person produces all by themselves without God, because Jesus said believing is the work of God (John 6:29 KJV). God must draw and open the heart as He did with Lydia in Acts 16:14 KJV so that the person can truly understand the truth of Christ and respond. The gospel message is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. Romans 1:16 KJV says that the gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. It is not regeneration before faith that is the power of God unto salvation. It is the gospel believed that brings salvation and new life in Christ.

So yes, those in the flesh cannot come to God on their own power alone. That is why God draws, convicts, and opens the heart, enabling a genuine choice. God does not force salvation. He offers it to all through Christ and calls each person to trust Him freely.




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[reneweddaybyday]

Ok so you believe that's mans will, will go against the will of God, but you won't accept God goes against the will of man

I mean do you realise just how one sided that is ?

So what your saying in your belief system then, is it's wrong to ago against the will of a person.

I believe it is in our best interest to be in alignment with the Will of God ... it is not in our best interest to go against the Will of God.

But isn't that human reasoning, as in your thinking, you don't like to against the will another person there for they should not go against yours ?

If I am not in alignment with the Will of God ... and you are in alignment with God's Will ... and you go against my will ... you would be in alignment with God's Will and I would not be in alignment with God's Will.

you would receive the blessing God promises.
I would receive the consequence.

And then your equating that to be totally wrong if God goes against the will of a person.

If a person goes against the Will of God ... and that person suffers the consequence God has indicated ... then that is not God going against the will of a person ... that is God fulfilling that which He decreed ... that is God upholding His Will.

But your logic has so many flaws in it.

1 A parent has to control there child's behaviour or they go out of control

A parent is not to "control there child's behaviour". A parent is to train up a child (Prov 22:6) ... bring up a child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord (Eph 6:4). The child then learns to control his or her own behavior.

2. A person going against the will of authority ie God's authority needs to be reprimanded by God and does by God all the time.

agree.

When God chastens, is that "God going against the will of man" or is that God upholding His Will?

3 does a prisoner like having his freedom taking away, and would he keeping braking the law if be never got caught ?

A lot of times criminals are not sorry they broke the law ... they're sorry they got caught.

Now addressing why I started this discussion was not because I don't believe the word is God or was God

But because other Christians recognise that the word was with God and the word was God, and they recognise that both sentiments are true.

I believe what is written in John 1:1.

And they also recognise in John 1 that the will of the flesh is the will of man, even tho it says nor by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man.tbey recognise the ancestry to be same here as it is said the word was with God and is God, ancestry being from the beginning

You are conflating what is written in John 1:13 with what is written in John 1:1.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 states definitively that the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:13 does not state that the will of the flesh is the will of man.

The question is
do you recognise that the will of the flesh is the will of man ?

I recognize that you believe the will of the flesh is the will of man.
.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 is simply showing man’s need for God to open the heart and understanding so that a person can accept or reject the gospel of their own free will. This is why God draws all men to Christ and shines His light upon every person. Without that drawing and illumination, we would remain in the flesh. Once God enables a person to understand the gospel, the flesh is no longer a barrier to believing any more than a Calvinist would claim the flesh remains a barrier after God has already regenerated someone. So we both agree the flesh is a real obstacle. The difference is that I believe God overcomes that obstacle by drawing and enlightening every person through the gospel so that they can genuinely respond to Christ in faith, not by regenerating only a select few before they believe.

The person is in the flesh until indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. Scripture says as much, and the flesh is not going to choose what Scripture says it cannot... it will not and cannot please God by making that choice, it cannot submit to and/or obey God, these things are explicitly articulated, I have posted those verses also, many many many times. Those born of God, reborn, indwelt overcome the world, not, the incurably wicked heart chooses to believe what it is inherently hostile toward and opposed to thereby overcoming the world and God then gives them a new heart. We are called out of the world which cannot receive the Spirit of Truth.

Thank you for sharing these verses. I agree completely that the flesh is hostile to God. Romans 8 and Galatians 5 show that the natural man, left without God’s illumination, will not submit to Him and cannot please Him. John 1:5 KJV and John 14:17 KJV also point out that darkness does not comprehend the light and that the world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. That is the true condition of man apart from God’s work with His truth.

You are welcome! I have shared them many many many times.

 

[Magenta]

It is God who establishes you in Christ. God made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have not received the spirit of the world. God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. If the Spirit of God lives in you, you are not controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit.

 

[Genez]

What you call God forcing things on people so they can then operate under their flesh to freely choose with
their incurably wicked heart opposed to the spiritual things of God, what Scripture says the flesh cannot.


Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

You sadly fail to see that the soul of a person is not an aspect of the flesh. They do not operate in their flesh to freely choose.
You are really missing something. Their soul is freed up to choose by grace because God steps in and sovereignly neutralizes the flesh's power over the soul. It is with our soul we believe. Not our flesh.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

The person is in the flesh until indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God. Scripture says as much, and the flesh is not going to choose what Scripture says it cannot... it will not and cannot please God by making that choice, it cannot submit to and/or obey God, these things are explicitly articulated, I have posted those verses also, many many many times. Those born of God, reborn, indwelt overcome the world, not, the incurably wicked heart chooses to believe what it is inherently hostile toward and opposed to thereby overcoming the world and God then gives them a new heart. We are called out of the world which cannot receive the Spirit of Truth.

You are welcome! I have shared them many many many times.

Here are some verses that may challenge you:

1. Ephesians 1:13 KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.”
Bible Summary: Hearing the gospel leads to believing and then comes the sealing of the Spirit.
Calvinist Claim: The Spirit indwells a person before believing so that belief can happen.


2. John 1:12 KJV
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”
Bible Summary: Believing and receiving Christ happens before becoming a child of God.
Calvinist Claim: A person must already be a child of God before they can believe.


3. Acts 7:51 KJV
“…ye do always resist the Holy Ghost…”
Bible Summary: The Holy Spirit’s work can be resisted.
Calvinist Claim: The Holy Spirit’s saving work cannot be resisted by those who perish.
Context: Stephen says their fathers “slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One” and that they were betrayers and murderers of Jesus. They were “cut to the heart” yet still refused Him (Acts 7:52 and 7:54).


4. John 12:32 KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
Bible Summary: Jesus draws all people, not only a select few.
Calvinist Claim: Jesus draws only the elect who were already regenerated.


5. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
“Because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
Bible Summary: Those who perish do so because they refuse the saving truth offered to them.
Calvinist Claim: Those who perish have no ability to receive the truth, believe the gospel, repent, or please God in any way until after they are regenerated by the Spirit first.


6. John 20:31 KJV
“These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Bible Summary: Believing results in life which shows life does not cause belief.
Calvinist Claim: A person must already have spiritual life before they can believe.


7. John 16:8 KJV
“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.”
Bible Summary: The Spirit convicts the world which shows universal enablement prior to salvation.
Calvinist Claim: The Spirit only convicts the elect with saving intent.


8. 2 Peter 2:1 KJV
“…even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
Bible Summary: Christ paid their debt by giving them the check, yet they deny the very Lord who bought them and refuse to use the payment to clear their debt. They were fully purchased, yet they still perish because they reject the provision made for them.
Calvinist Claim: Christ only died for the elect and everyone He died for must be regenerated and saved.


9. Luke 8:12 KJV
“Then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”
Bible Summary: Believing is what brings salvation which shows salvation does not cause the believing.
Calvinist Claim: A person must be saved or regenerated first in order to believe.


10. Matthew 23:37 KJV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not.”
Bible Summary: Jesus genuinely desired to gather them to Himself for salvation, but they refused.
Calvinist Claim: Those who perish refuse because God never willed to save them or enable them to respond.
Context: They shut up the kingdom of heaven against men (Matthew 23:13) and their house is left unto them desolate (Matthew 23:38), proving rejection of salvation was involved.




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[sawdust]

So God convinces someone of something and then their free will kicks in and they get to decide whether they choose to believe
what they have just been convinced of? No, that really makes no sense: the lack of logic in such a position is almost funny.

Could you please show us in scripture where the Holy Spirit is convincing the world that Jesus Christ is Saviour?

Believing God is righteous, that we are sinners and that there is judgement is not what saves.

 

[sawdust]

You are really missing something.

Shes missing a lot more than "some thing".

 

[Jordon]

Consider the possibility that, much like the fictional "Winter Soldier", all that the brainwashed super-determinist needs to hear is a few code words (like predestined, elect, foreodained etc) to trigger them into a psychotic state of heresy mania.

I am SURE that you can identify these traits as well as the persons afflicted on this thread......right?

Oh so you taking in part in this thread is because your your trying to help people with there inflictions ?

That's the funniest thing you've said, you probably inflicted

I believe it is in our best interest to be in alignment with the Will of God ... it is not in our best interest to go against the Will of God.





If I am not in alignment with the Will of God ... and you are in alignment with God's Will ... and you go against my will ... you would be in alignment with God's Will and I would not be in alignment with God's Will.

you would receive the blessing God promises.
I would receive the consequence.





If a person goes against the Will of God ... and that person suffers the consequence God has indicated ... then that is not God going against the will of a person ... that is God fulfilling that which He decreed ... that is God upholding His Will.





A parent is not to "control there child's behaviour". A parent is to train up a child (Prov 22:6) ... bring up a child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord (Eph 6:4). The child then learns to control his or her own behavior.





agree.

When God chastens, is that "God going against the will of man" or is that God upholding His Will?





A lot of times criminals are not sorry they broke the law ... they're sorry they got caught.





I believe what is written in John 1:1.





You are conflating what is written in John 1:13 with what is written in John 1:1.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 states definitively that the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:13 does not state that the will of the flesh is the will of man.





I recognize that you believe the will of the flesh is the will of man.
.

yep well you know if God didn't have patience in his will, there is no way in this world your human reasoning could ever be reasoned with.

Using words like training to make controlling look bad, might be a good idea to you, but that's the kind of human reasoning that gives people the excuse they need to not be controlled and live in sin with the devil

Which is why satan will control them all there life

Question, What would you rather have done, let Satan control there hearts or God ?

Satan will use tricks like tempting a person into addiction so then he can control there nature much more easier,

Where as God uses his shepherds to guide them in kindness , to control there nature, and he also uses fruits of his spirit like self control to control there nature,

As humans actions can't fill God,
Human actions without his word are dead.

The term, faith without works is dead is true

The scripture God predestined us to do is works, again equates to God controlling our very nature to prevent satan from doing so.

But again you will appeal to your human reasoning and write it all off with one word.

You remind me of somebody that blames God because it's not there fault why they are what they are.

 

[Cameron143]

You completely miss the point of what I said. Epignosis is more than experiencing God. So saying the comparison between gnosis and epignosis is knowing and experiencing is a fallacy.

Easy enough to Google. That's ex

You completely miss the point of what I said. Epignosis is more than experiencing God. So saying the comparison between gnosis and epignosis is knowing and experiencing is a fallacy.

It's not either. It's as simple as Googleing.

 

[BillyBob]

I believe it is in our best interest to be in alignment with the Will of God ... it is not in our best interest to go against the Will of God.

Then you should consider switching to a reformed church. There may be one nearby.
When you do, I promise that I will not call you a Calvinist.

 

[Cameron143]

Or you might go look at the links I gave and stop making excuses.

One is active tense; one is passive tense. In the first, the individual performs the action. In the second, the action is performed by God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Unless they are a 4 point Calvinist whereby they deny Irresistible Grace, I don't see how that is possible.
The fact that they criticize free will is proof that they do not believe a person has an option in choosing God.
They believe it is all God making the choice to believe alone to happen.
Some here may try to alter their belief a bit but that is not consistent or true Calvinism.

...

They are not denying irresistible grace, @Cameron143 has posted many times, a person can understand the Good News but will only respond to it negatively unless God uniquely intervenes and regenerates and bequeaths faith after they have been regenerated.

I do not think there is "true Calvinism" Their soteriology is a spectrum of false ideas.

Augustine from his Manichaeism roots argued faith was infused into a person and anyone who teaches this is within the Calvinist school of thought.

Augustine originally held the correct traditional view of conversion and then over time switched to the incorrect, deterministic view.

I think this is the singular faulty pillar of all "Calvinism Spectrum System" that faith is infused after being regenerated.

All this is based on a deterministic God, which again is based on Augustine and his ideas carried forward by John Calvin.

Once you state "faith is infused" and God as the determiner of the this saving faith, you have landed squarely in TULIP territory.

 

[HeIsHere]

Shes missing a lot more than "some thing".

She thinks her personal experience is how to interpret scripture.