Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Bible_Highlighter]

Calvinists assert a person can ONLY deny the Gospel, unless god directly, uniquely, particularly intervenes and regenerates first,

the person has an inward work done before they believe, so in essence they have been sanctified before belief.

Error from start to finish.

Unless they are a 4 point Calvinist whereby they deny Irresistible Grace, I don't see how that is possible.
The fact that they criticize free will is proof that they do not believe a person has an option in choosing God.
They believe it is all God making the choice to believe alone to happen.
Some here may try to alter their belief a bit but that is not consistent or true Calvinism.



....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Does the text say that God is patient (longsuffering) to the entire world or to Peter's audience to whom he was writing?

Are the Elect of God in any real danger of perishing? No.
So, this must mean 2 Peter 3:9 is referring to ALL people.
God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
So the offer is freely given to ALL and not the Elect or a small few.



....

 

[sawdust]

What do you think is the foremost thing from which sinners need to be saved: The flesh (sin nature), the world or the devil?

death

 

[sawdust]

So unbelievers don't have "flesh" (sinful nature) issues, heh? Only believers do? Have you never read:

1 Peter 4:16-18
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
NIV

There's that pogo stick again.

Did I not say they need to deal with the Gospel first? Does your verse not speak regarding those who do not obey the Gospel?

Do you think you will ever read one of my posts and actually understand what I have said?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You have God forcing enlightenment on people. How is that free will? We have also been told that God
convinced someone of the truth (as is your general spiel) and then they get to choose whether to believe
or not, which is a massive logic fail. Being convinced of something means you already do believe it. But
they insist on inserting their free will will into the process regardless of how senseless it really is. You
make it sound like you resent having life forced on you. How dare God gift you life, eh? Such a shame.

Should God have just left you dead in your sins? Would you have preferred that?

God enforcing a Temporary Enlightenment or Enablement in Prevenient Grace is not a violation of free will. In this doctrine, it is the freeing of the will temporarily for a person to either choose the gospel or reject it of their own free will. But it is God who opens their heart and understanding. Scripture says that Christ draws all men unto Him. Except for those who worship the beast in the future (Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8) this means the majority of mankind will have the opportunity to be awakened to God's gracious offer that can only happen by His drawing, conviction, opening of their heart and eyes, etcetera. This enlightenment by God includes the gospel message with it because that is how a person is brought into the Kingdom to be saved. It's not the drawing that saves, because a person can still refuse the gospel. It is the gospel that saves. The gospel saves and not Calvinism or some kind of forced regeneration. This is the problem with Calvinism.

I mean, how does the gospel of salvation even fit into your understanding of getting saved according to Scripture?
The Bible makes it clear that we are saved by the gospel.
We are told to believe in the gospel.
How can these things be if it is actually Calvinism that saves?



....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

And even when God does that, FWers still aren't happy! God determines to leave people in the flesh so that they can freely choose to do whatever they so desire, God is bad! Or when God rescues the hopeless and helpless, He's also bad! The FWers believe they have a mortal lock on what is just, good and fair.

No, its called common sense. You know those radical leftists in the US? They don't have common sense. They think socialism, communism, being soft on crime, attacking efforts to help America financially, having no remorse over the death of your political opponents being killed, and open borders is sustainable, moral, and good.

Calvinism is also a lack of common sense and it violates basic morality if you think logically about how it really works.
Calvinism is bad because God's method of salvation is all on Him. So if God can save people by just snapping His fingers, then why does He not do that for everyone? To illustrate, it would be like you choose to save only one person you loved versus saving all the people that you loved. If the one person you chose to save asked you why you didn't save the other people you care about, what would be your answer? Would you not see or understand how this would be morally wrong? If you don't get it, then you need to check in your moral compass and get it fixed sometime. I say this not to wound you, dear sir, but I say this in love to help get on the right track with the Lord.

May the Lord Jesus shine His good ways upon you today.



....

 

[Genez]

Man understanding that God exists through creation and conscience is not the same as God working inside an individual to enlighten his understanding. Your conflation of the 2 is one source of error for you.

If you notice, you would have seen that I did cover your view with prevenient grace. So far from gaslighting anyone, I represented all prevailing views. Perhaps if you were truly here to learn, as you have previously posited, you would actually read what people post carefully.

Taking your own advice on discipline would serve you well.

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world ​

God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being ​

understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but ​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21​

Did not God make them to know He is real?

Yes or no?
What took place was the equivalent of epignosis of what God instilled in them.

It says they chose to suppress the truth that God made undeniable to them.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. ​

​

Can you read that out loud and allow yourself to hear what it says?????

It is just not sinking in with you.....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world ​

God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being ​

understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but ​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21​

Did not God make them to know He is real?

Yes or no?
What took place was the equivalent of epignosis of what God instilled in them.

It says they chose to suppress the truth that God made undeniable to them.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. ​

​

Can you read that out loud and allow yourself to hear what it says?????

It is just not sinking in with you.....

I really like the red to orange font. Very nice.
But yes. Great points in Scripture here.

May God bless you.



....


....

 

[Genez]

But God's batting average with the people of the world is quite dismal since virtually the entire world, whom God allegedly granted freedom to their souls to decide what sinners want, freely chooses to hate Christ, His Father, wisdom, knowledge and the truth. The worst hitter in baseball has a far better average than Almighty God does with his "enabling" grace.

Did not God grant angels the freedom to reject Him?

1/3 of them rejected Him.

Not a good batting average?

 

[Cameron143]

​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world ​

God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being ​

understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but ​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21​

Did not God make them to know He is real?

Yes or no?
What took place was the equivalent of epignosis of what God instilled in them.

It says they chose to suppress the truth that God made undeniable to them.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness ​

of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God ​

is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. ​

​

Can you read that out loud and allow yourself to hear what it says?????

It is just not sinking in with you.....

Knowing that God exists is not epignosis. The natural fallen man can know of the existence of God innately through creation and conscience. This is why all mankind is accountable before God. But this doesn't require any enlightenment on God's part to the individual. What is known of God is from the things that are seen. So no, God does not directly cause them to know. No spiritual enlightenment is given. Indirectly, God did endow man with the intellect and placed eternity in man's heart that allows man to understand that God exists.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Also, a reformed person telling someone that they must believe the gospel is not a lie. We all must believe! But, it is God who will enable them to believe by drawing them. Is is not something that natural man can do without the work of the Spirit.
Does that offend you in some way?

I believe in Prevenient Grace, but I prefer to call it Temporary Enlightenment or Enablement. This doctrine teaches that your will is freed by God’s drawing, conviction, and the opening of the heart, etcetera. However, this is not a hostile take over. When God frees the will from the darkness of Satan when presenting the gospel to understand it, a person has the free will choice to either accept the gospel or reject it. Yet this is only under God’s illumination or enablement to do so. So they have free will to make a choice towards the gospel, but it is only when God draws and opens their heart and eyes. Calvinism does not allow for any real choice at any point. It is God choosing to save only a select few based on no conditions within the individual. Hence, why it is called UN-conditional Election.

Does a forced salvation offend me? If everyone would be saved by this method, it would be alright because God would be consistent in caring about all human life equally in His love. The problem is if God just chooses to save only a few by some kind of forced salvation, then this would mean God created a bunch of humans only to see them burn for eternity based on the good counsel of His will. It would not really be their fault for not choosing Him. The blame would fall on God for men suffering in the Lake of Fire, and not mankind. Sure, someone might use the thin excuse that all sinned in Adam and so they would have sinned anyway, but the dilemma remains that God could save them and He simply chooses not to for no good reason.



....

 

[Genez]

Knowing that God exists is not epignosis. .

But, God made it to be epignosis for them.

Look up the Greek.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21

 

[Cameron143]

But, God made it to be epignosis for them.

Look up the Greek.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21

You are incorrect. It's not epignosis. It is knowledge that comes through creation and conscience. It is natural knowledge; not spiritual.

 

[Genez]

You are incorrect. It's not epignosis. It is knowledge that comes through creation and conscience. It is natural knowledge; not spiritual.

God made them to know.
Not simply providing evidence.

Did you look it up? It is epignosis!!!!

Epignosis is only granted to believers who are humble and filled with the Spirit.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21​

Epignosis indicates God was SOVEREIGNLY causing a spiritual grafting into a person to know!

That is why it says they are without excuse!

Your way, leaves miles of leeway for making excuses!

 

[Kroogz]

I would change what you wrote to:

"In the bible, the word translated 'all' doesn't always mean 'everybody without exception'."

That is not the real question is this debate. When does "all" mean " all without exception" is the real question.

And 1 verse clears it up without question.......And "The many" does it.

Romans 5:15
But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.

The offence of one...... ALL died.

MUCH MORE....To a greater degree.

Did the Grace of God and the gift by the grace of one go to ALL.

 

[sawdust]

Unless they are a 4 point Calvinist whereby they deny Irresistible Grace, I don't see how that is possible.
The fact that they criticize free will is proof that they do not believe a person has an option in choosing God.
They believe it is all God making the choice to believe alone to happen.
Some here may try to alter their belief a bit but that is not consistent or true Calvinism.



....

My understanding is they still freely choose God but two things must happen first.
1. Regeneration
2. A new heart

They don't see that as salvation though (yeah, I don't get it either) but then they are able to believe freely and so are saved. Of course they see that it is God who decides who will believe or not because He decided to elect a random number of people for salvation.

But it basically boils down to no-one can believe unless God first regenerates and sanctifies you.

 

[Kroogz]

death

Reformed/calvie/tulip theory likes to say that they are God centered....But they are man centered.

We are saved to ETERNAL LIFE. His life......The things we are "saved" from in this life are wonderful but they pale in comparison to eternal life....His life.

 

[Cameron143]

God made them to know.
Not simply providing evidence.

Did you look it up? It is epignosis!!!!

Epignosis is only granted to believers who are humble and filled with the Spirit.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21​

Epignosis indicates God was SOVEREIGNLY causing a spiritual grafting into a person to know!

That is why it says they are without excuse!

Your way, leaves miles of leeway for making excuses!

The word gnontos means know or realize. In the original Greek there is no connotation of the word having to do with spiritual understanding or enlightenment. It is knowledge from self enlightenment or awareness.

Mankind has always made excuses, starting with Adam. This in no way has made man unaccountable before God.

 

[Magenta]

Excellent companion verse! Jesus in Jn 5 also told the God-hating Pharisees that they did not belong to God, nor did they have the love of God within them (the greatest catalyst that moves people's hearts to obey the Truth)...therefore, the were unable to believe His gospel. In other words, their spiritual elevator was always stuck in the basement; for it lacked divine power to go anywhere.

So true, they were told they do not hear because they belonged not to God, whereas we have free willers insisting everyone hears, against Jesus saying His sheep hear, and only those whom He chooses to reveal the Father know Him, with knowing Him being equated with salvation/eternal life. Free willers are so used to inserting their philosophical wishful thinking into the Bible they cannot even acknowledge what it actually says. Now we can add that God forcing things is not a violation of free will unless it is certain things. The ridiculous nature of what is being asserted by these free willers gets ever more bizarre... and we are still left with zero verses from them.

 

[sawdust]

God made them to know.
Not simply providing evidence.

Did you look it up? It is epignosis!!!!

Epignosis is only granted to believers who are humble and filled with the Spirit.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but​

their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21​

Epignosis indicates God was SOVEREIGNLY causing a spiritual grafting into a person to know!

That is why it says they are without excuse!

Your way, leaves miles of leeway for making excuses!

Actually verse Rom.1:28 says they did not have epignosis but they did have complete understanding of who God is for the word used in Rom.1:21 is the same word used in Gal.2:9

It still leaves them to be without excuse for they were not deceived nor ignorant of who God is. They understood His rightful place in their lives but refused to acknowledge giving Him that place.

Are you maybe thinking of something else?