Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

It's what they do all the time here David, they even automatically assume somebody else's faith being expressed by a person in the bible is that person own faith and not the lords faith, and they then claim it's there's faith straight away, they won't even answer is it the lords faith that's being delivered, and that's how there answering.
I don't see that you can read faith being expressed as your own straight away, faith is a gift

Here's an example look

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”

You see here there is no need to ask the lord to increase your faith, but I bet you many would

6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

the last sentence is the most important one for me @DavidLamb

The lord is saying if you have my faith you will obey me

 

[HeIsHere]

Only the "one verse wonders" who refuse to do their homework choose to drink the super-determinist snake oil.

[Pro 1:22 KJV] 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Yes I used to feel sad about it, but really they allowed themselves to be deceived by a snake oil salesman, this doctrine feeds the flesh not the the spirit, without doubt.

 

[HeIsHere]

He did not make them to not believe.

Agreed!

 

[HeIsHere]

I would change what you wrote to:

"In the bible, the word translated 'all' doesn't always mean 'everybody without exception'." For example, does this verse mean that every single person from Judea and the region around the Jordan was baptized by John?:

“Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.” (Mr 1:5 NKJV)

Similarly with "world". When Caesar issued his decree that all the world should be taxed, it meant the whole Roman empire, not every single individual on earth:

“And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.” (Lu 2:1 NKJV)

Yes, but some interpretations of particular verses get that meaning wrong to support a system of theology.

 

[HeIsHere]

It's hard to work out a salvation one doesn't possess. Even you believe in prevenient grace.
Required is an interesting choice of words. Nothing required is different from no response. God's grace always elicits a response. Some reject and some receive. That's not in question. The question is why?

"Salvation" in that verse in not in reference to eternal life.

Your system fails to answer why some receive and some reject using scripture as its guide, rather is uses eisegesis and manufactures a different god.

 

[Magenta]

the real battle for truth should stay rooted in Scripture

Zero verses articulating free will. Many telling us man (unregenerated) is incapable, cannot submit or obey, opposed and hostile to God, blinded to truth, taken captive to do the will of the devil, so odd that is called freedom by you lot, serving the law of sin, enslaved in fact, a lover of darkness refusing to come into the light... so many verses you guys repeatedly reject in favour of your vain self-exalting philosophy.

I am simply recognizing a pattern here.

Yes, the pattern of free willers is to reject, contradict and outright deny what Scripture explicitly articulates
in favor of what they think, also preferring to rewrite what is written rather than accept it on face value.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Much of what you say I agree with. Then you go off the rails with a statement such as:
“He chooses to save those who believe the gospel.”
Please explain how this is possible when He chose us before time began!
Of course we must believe, and hearing His word along with the work of the Holy Spirit will draw us to Christ. That is His work and His alone!
I totally agree that the gospel is to go forth asking all to repent and believe. That call goes out because we do not know who belongs to God and who does not. It is God who determines who it will have an affect on, and all others will remain without excuse.
God has always protected His people like a mother hen. None will be left behind.
I will never understand why men wish to be in control of their own destiny rather than placing their trust in the work of Christ. I suppose that we have a pride and think more highly of ourselves than we ought. . . . .

I am saying that in Calvinism to tell people to believe the gospel is a lie if they do not have the capacity to believe under some kind of free will choice to begin with (Which I believe happens under God’s drawing and enlightening alone). It would be like telling a computer to believe or a rock. In your view, what is causing the belief is that God and man have zero part in it. So in Calvinism, to tell men to believe in the gospel is a lie because they are simply not capable of doing so. This is what you fail to see in the many problems in the man-made belief of Calvinism. You also do not fairly look at verses that sound like free will or regard words like "all" when telling men to repent. This is why your systematic belief is lopsided and cannot be taken seriously. In addition, the corrupt Modern Bibles (which are the new kids on the block) also push Calvinism in certain verses, as well.



....

 

[Genez]

I would change what you wrote to:

"In the bible, the word translated 'all' doesn't always mean 'everybody without exception'." For example, does this verse mean that every single person from Judea and the region around the Jordan was baptized by John?

But, they could have been.
Personal choice set the limitation.

If Muslims can migrate from all over the world to Mecca?... It would have been much easier to trek to find salvation for those Jews.
Matter of fact, Jews from all over the ancient world would migrate to Jerusalem for the High Holy days. That is why at Pentecost there were Jews there who spoke many foreign tongues.

 

[NightTwister]

Intentional

I am saying that in Calvinism to tell people to believe the gospel is a lie if they do not have the capacity to believe under some kind of free will choice to begin with (Which I believe happens under God’s drawing and enlightening alone). It would be like telling a computer to believe or a rock. In your view, what is causing the belief is that God and man have zero part in it. So in Calvinism, to tell men to believe in the gospel is a lie because they are simply not capable of doing so. This is what you fail to see in the many problems in the man-made belief of Calvinism. You also do not fairly look at verses that sound like free will or regard words like "all" when telling men to repent. This is why your systematic belief is lopsided and cannot be taken seriously. In addition, the corrupt Modern Bibles (which are the new kids on the block) also push Calvinism in certain verses, as well..

Intentional misrepresentation, or misunderstanding?

 

[Genez]

Zero verses articulating free will.

​

​

Now if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, ​

whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods ​

of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, ​

we will serve the Lord.’ Joshua 24:15​

​

​

​

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set ​

before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and ​

your children may live. Deuteronomy 30:19​

So God was just playing games with them...
Knowing full well that they had no freedom to choose.

I still wonder what your concept of free will must be.

 

[Cameron143]

"Salvation" in that verse in not in reference to eternal life.

Your system fails to answer why some receive and some reject using scripture as its guide, rather is uses eisegesis and manufactures a different god.

Sanctification is certainly an ongoing outworking of salvation. And, as knowing God and Christ is the essence of eternal life, identifying how God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure can equate to knowing God.
As my goal wasn't to do anything other than establish that God works from the inside out, your criticism is invalid. You believe the fallen natural man is equipped with all that is necessary to believe in Christ despite his depravity. Others believe in prevenient grace, recognizing that the estate of the fallen natural man is ill-equiped to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Still others believe God not only withholds the flesh, but altogether works inside an individual to bring them to faith.
I do find it interesting that you never tell those who subscribe to prevenient grace that they have invalid understandings or that their system fails in some manner.

 

[Magenta]

Sanctification is certainly an ongoing outworking of salvation. And, as knowing God and Christ is the essence of eternal life, identifying how God is working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure can equate to knowing God.
As my goal wasn't to do anything other than establish that God works from the inside out, your criticism is invalid. You believe the fallen natural man is equipped with all that is necessary to believe in Christ despite his depravity. Others believe in prevenient grace, recognizing that the estate of the fallen natural man is ill-equiped to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Still others believe God not only withholds the flesh, but altogether works inside an individual to bring them to faith.
I do find it interesting that you never tell those who subscribe to prevenient grace that they have invalid understandings or that their system fails in some manner.

Criticizing prevenient grace would not allow her to air her CDS, which does seem to be her fave
pass time here when she is not misrepresenting Scripture, others, herself, or blaspheming God.

 

[HeIsHere]

I am saying that in Calvinism to tell people to believe the gospel is a lie if they do not have the capacity to believe under some kind of free will choice to begin with (Which I believe happens under God’s drawing and enlightening alone). It would be like telling a computer to believe or a rock. In your view, what is causing the belief is that God and man have zero part in it. So in Calvinism, to tell men to believe in the gospel is a lie because they are simply not capable of doing so. This is what you fail to see in the many problems in the man-made belief of Calvinism. You also do not fairly look at verses that sound like free will or regard words like "all" when telling men to repent. This is why your systematic belief is lopsided and cannot be taken seriously. In addition, the corrupt Modern Bibles (which are the new kids on the block) also push Calvinism in certain verses, as well.

....

Sir, soon you will learn many do not care if the doctrine is true, if they did, they would not believe it, nor would they promote it.

Why do I say this, because it does not take much honest examination to see that these supposed "doctrines of grace" Canons of Dort, are completely false.

 

[Genez]

As my goal wasn't to do anything other than establish that God works from the inside out, your criticism is invalid.

As well, God's drawing of men works from the inside of a man's thinking.
And, has done so with all, even with those who will ultimately reject Him.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because ​

God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

Romans 1:18-20​

You believe the fallen natural man is equipped with all that is necessary to believe in Christ despite his depravity.

That is your go-to gaslighting ploy.

I have been telling you (numerous times) that grace must force down the effect of the flesh over the soul, to make able for that soul in that body to see what God wants it to consider, while made by grace to be in the freedom away from depravity of the flesh.

Romans 1:18-23? I quoted, above, tells us plainly that God was able to get through and made them able to see what He was using to draw them with.

Leaving them how?
To be without excuse.

Your Calvinistic gaslighting is becoming a bore.
You refuse to think outside the propaganda you have set yourself into.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 12:1​

According to Proverbs 12:1?
You are a clever, but stupid person.

Until you line up with the truth?
That's what you have become.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because ​

God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

Romans 1:18-20​

Why no excuse?

Because God placed them, by grace, into a state that they could have believed if they wanted to!

​

​

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 12:1​

​

That is why I called you "Teflon" brain.​

 

[Magenta]

Sir, soon you will learn many do not care if the doctrine is true, if they did, they would not believe it, nor would they promote it.

How much do you care about all the falsehoods and misrepresentations you promote? You reject correction repeatedly.

Scripture says, the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. Your view is, it can. Scripture says the man of flesh (unregenerated) cannot submit to or obey God. Your view is, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he can. Scripture says the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he can. Scripture says a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Your view is, it can. Scripture says the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God. Your view is, he is not. Scripture says the gospel is hid. Your view is, the gospel is not hid. Jesus said not everyone hears. Your view is, everyone hears. Scripture says flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. Your view is, the flesh can choose to make a decision a plethora of Scriptures say it cannot, to please God and bring forth fruit unto life. Scripture says the devil has taken people captive to do his will. Your view is, man has a will that is free. Scripture says no man can come to God unless God draws them. Your view is, divine intervention is not necessary. Your view is, man has everything he needs to come to believe. Scripture makes plain certain things are only known through the Spirit and revelation which you continually denigrate. Scripture shows over and over again from Genesis all the way through to Revelation that God reveals Himself differently from one person to the next. Your view is, God is unfair if He were to reveal Himself in any way differently from one person to the next. Your view is those you disagree with should preach in cemeteries, then you lie about conflating spiritual death with physical death. Your view is to not only blaspheme God yourself, but agree with those who blaspheme God in other ways. Along with other free willers, you come across as despising God's sovereignty, and call Him doing things for His own purposes doing them for no good reason. No matter how you look at it, your theological stance on this issue directly contradicts and outright denies what the Bible explicitly articulates in a number of places, and you are not likely to change it any time soon because to bring your view into line with what Scripture actually teaches would bring your whole house of cards down, and demolish your vain self-exalting stance. You cannot have that, since you are far too attached to your ear-tickling doctrine. One could even say you were in love with it. You certainly love it more than the Truth of Scripture.

The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his uncircumcised heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart cannot be changed. He hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Intentional

Intentional misrepresentation, or misunderstanding?

Not at all. There is no free will in choosing God in Calvinism. It’s 100% God getting a person to believe, which would be… believing the gospel message. They do not believe, but it is God enforcing that decision upon them that they would otherwise not make. So when Scripture says to believe the gospel, it is a lie, and not true, because they cannot do such a thing on their own ability or power at any point. This is yet another one of the many problems that keep piling up in the man-made belief of Calvinism.


....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Plus, Paul says that we are saved by believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This again is not true in Calvinism because you are saved beforehand with a heart regeneration before you even believe the gospel message. 2 Corinthians 4:4 says we are saved from the blindness of Satan by the light of the gospel. Again, this is not true in Calvinism because you are saved prior by God in being born again before faith in the gospel message.



.....

 

[reneweddaybyday]

none the the will of man is the ancestry of the will of the flesh .

And once again your splitting the meanings up in an order to suit your interpretations.

nope ... I believe God has a purpose for every single word in His Word and there is a reason why He differentiated between the will of the flesh and the will of man ... so it could be that you conflate the two in "order to suit your interpretations".

Just like you won't split up the word of God becoming flesh you solely attribute that to Jesus becoming flesh, and don't recognise the word was with God.

again, I believe John 1:1 as written ... I believe John 1:14 as written.

Do you believe what is written in Revelation 19 concerning the Lord Jesus Christ? vs 13 tells us His name is The Word of God.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Word in John 1:1 Who became flesh in John 1:14 is clearly revealed in Revelation 19:11-16 ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God ... the King of kings ... the Lord of lords.

And its been the same a lot of other times to where you haven't acknowledged God going against the will of the flesh.

And here you are splitting it up again.

I believe it is mankind who goes against the Will of God.

You are free to continue to believe that God goes against man's will ... I would request that you allow me to continue to believe that mankind goes against God's Will and mankind receives the consequence of having gone against God's Will. thank you.
.

 

[Cameron143]

As well, God's drawing of men works from the inside of a man's thinking.
And, has done so with all, even with those who will ultimately reject Him.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because ​

God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

Romans 1:18-20​

That is your go-to gaslighting ploy.

I have been telling you (numerous times) that grace must force down the effect of the flesh over the soul, to make able for that soul in that body to see what God wants it to consider, while made by grace to be in the freedom away from depravity of the flesh.

Romans 1:18-23? I quoted, above, tells us plainly that God was able to get through and made them able to see what He was using to draw them with.

Leaving them how?
To be without excuse.

Your Calvinistic gaslighting is becoming a bore.
You refuse to think outside the propaganda you have set yourself into.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 12:1​

According to Proverbs 12:1?
You are a clever, but stupid person.

Until you line up with the truth?
That's what you have become.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because ​

God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

​

Romans 1:18-20​

Why no excuse?

Because God placed them, by grace, into a state that they could have believed if they wanted to!

​

​

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,​

but whoever hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 12:1​

​

That is why I called you "Teflon" brain.​

Man understanding that God exists through creation and conscience is not the same as God working inside an individual to enlighten his understanding. Your conflation of the 2 is one source of error for you.

If you notice, you would have seen that I did cover your view with prevenient grace. So far from gaslighting anyone, I represented all prevailing views. Perhaps if you were truly here to learn, as you have previously posited, you would actually read what people post carefully.

Taking your own advice on discipline would serve you well.

 

[Jordon]

nope ... I believe God has a purpose for every single word in His Word and there is a reason why He differentiated between the will of the flesh and the will of man ... so it could be that you conflate the two in "order to suit your interpretations".





again, I believe John 1:1 as written ... I believe John 1:14 as written.

Do you believe what is written in Revelation 19 concerning the Lord Jesus Christ? vs 13 tells us His name is The Word of God.

Revelation 19:11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Word in John 1:1 Who became flesh in John 1:14 is clearly revealed in Revelation 19:11-16 ... the Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God ... the King of kings ... the Lord of lords.





I believe it is mankind who goes against the Will of God.

You are free to continue to believe that God goes against man's will ... I would request that you allow me to continue to believe that mankind goes against God's Will and mankind receives the consequence of having gone against God's Will. thank you.
.

Ok so you believe that's mans will, will go against the will of God, but you won't accept God goes against the will of man

I mean do you realise just how one sided that is ?

So what your saying in your belief system then, is it's wrong to ago against the will of a person.

But isn't that human reasoning, as in your thinking, you don't like to against the will another person there for they should not go against yours ?

And then your equating that to be totally wrong if God goes against the will of a person.

But your logic has so many flaws in it.

1 A parent has to control there child's behaviour or they go out of control

2. A person going against the will of authority ie God's authority needs to be reprimanded by God and does by God all the time.

3 does a prisoner like having his freedom taking away, and would he keeping braking the law if be never got caught ?


Now addressing why I started this discussion was not because I don't believe the word is God or was God

But because other Christians recognise that the word was with God and the word was God, and they recognise that both sentiments are true.

And they also recognise in John 1 that the will of the flesh is the will of man, even tho it says nor by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man.tbey recognise the ancestry to be same here as it is said the word was with God and is God, ancestry being from the beginning

The question is
do you recognise that the will of the flesh is the will of man ?