Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Not at all. There is no free will in choosing God in Calvinism. It’s 100% God getting a person to believe, which would be… believing the gospel message. They do not believe, but it is God enforcing that decision upon them that they would otherwise not make. So when Scripture says to believe the gospel, it is a lie, and not true, because they cannot do such a thing on their own ability or power at any point. This is yet another one of the many problems that keep piling up in the man-made belief of Calvinism.
....

You have God forcing enlightenment on people. How is that free will? We have also been told that God
convinced someone of the truth (as is your general spiel) and then they get to choose whether to believe
or not, which is a massive logic fail. Being convinced of something means you already do believe it. But
they insist on inserting their free will will into the process regardless of how senseless it really is. You
make it sound like you resent having life forced on you. How dare God gift you life, eh? Such a shame.

Should God have just left you dead in your sins? Would you have preferred that?

Ephesians 2 v 4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[BillyBob]

I am saying that in Calvinism to tell people to believe the gospel is a lie if they do not have the capacity to believe under some kind of free will choice to begin with (Which I believe happens under God’s drawing and enlightening alone).

Sorta sounds like you are trying to walk on both sides of the fence at the same time...

 

[NightTwister]

Not at all. There is no free will in choosing God in Calvinism. It’s 100% God getting a person to believe, which would be… believing the gospel message. They do not believe, but it is God enforcing that decision upon them that they would otherwise not make. So when Scripture says to believe the gospel, it is a lie, and not true, because they cannot do such a thing on their own ability or power at any point. This is yet another one of the many problems that keep piling up in the man-made belief of Calvinism.

So, intentionally misleading. Got it. You really don't have to lie about the beliefs of others to disagree.

 

[BillyBob]

I am saying that in Calvinism to tell people to believe the gospel is a lie if they do not have the capacity to believe under some kind of free will choice to begin with (Which I believe happens under God’s drawing and enlightening alone).

Also, a reformed person telling someone that they must believe the gospel is not a lie. We all must believe! But, it is God who will enable them to believe by drawing them. Is is not something that natural man can do without the work of the Spirit.
Does that offend you in some way?

 

[Rufus]

Yes! No one can decide to believe for himself in his natural state.
That is why we need the POWER of God's grace to free up our soul to decide what we want to believe

Many Christians have an sweet emotional response when they hear the word 'grace' mentioned.
But, they fail to realize that grace is a real power.
God's power that God provides to enable the helpless to function as needed.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, ​

for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Corinthians 12:9a​

When grace is drawing all men into salvation?
That grace power will suppress the depravity of the flesh.
Thus, squelching the sin nature's dominance over the soul.

In doing so, that soul which had been enslaved to the flesh, will be freed up and given a chance to think things through.

All men are at some point drawn by God. Those whop freely reject, God condemns and stops the drawing process.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11​

​

That is the Word of God.

But God's batting average with the people of the world is quite dismal since virtually the entire world, whom God allegedly granted freedom to their souls to decide what sinners want, freely chooses to hate Christ, His Father, wisdom, knowledge and the truth. The worst hitter in baseball has a far better average than Almighty God does with his "enabling" grace.

 

[Rufus]

Lie. We believe the same as you in that grace enables God to do what man cannot. The difference is you insist in the unbiblical approach of saving people from death first (regeneration) and then saving them from whatever you think it is they need saving from after being saved.

We say God frees the will from the flesh so that man can freely accept or reject the truth of God presented so that it truly is "whosoever" believes and not who God determines will believe and in believing, God keeps His word (as He is so fond of doing) and saves believers.



Lie. Volition is a function of the soul not the flesh and gfrace contains the flesh so the soul can function according to it's own true desires without the influence of the flesh.



Lie. We say he cannot know the things that pertain to spiritual matters beyond the Gospel for the Gospel is presented as a moral dilemma so man can understand. ie. Right versus wrong resulting in judgement.



Lie. You assume man is inherently evil (born with a corrupt heart) which, would have God culpable of creating man evil. You fail to see the innate corruption is in the body, not the soul. (heart) God creates all souls innocent knowing neither good nor evil. Evil is learned but so is good because God has never forsaken mankind.



Lie. Scripture says the flesh is opposed to God. The natural man cannot comprehend that which requires spiritual discerning.



Lie. The Gospel was hidden in the past and only remains hidden to those who reject it.



Lie. The Gospel has appeared to all men. It is presented to everyone, that doesn't mean everyone listens.



Lie. The flesh does not make decisions of any kind. We have distinguished between the will and the flesh so many times throughout this thread yet you still cannot grasp something as basic as this.



Lie. We say man's will is bound to sin unless God acts in grace which He does so man can decide for himself like every other creature who was free to decide like Lucifer, every angel, Adam and Christ.



Lie. We have said time and time again God initiates and that without grace man would remain hopeless.



Lie. We have not denigrated anything. We have said God enables what man needs to believe (ie.frees the will). We understand differently to you and have given sound arguments as to why we believe differently.



Lie. God has shown Himself to everyone the same through the creation.



Lie. What we view unfair is God making a person specifically for destruction and then blaming them for their destruction.



Lie. Preaching in cemeteries is a joke and we do not conflate, we understand the difference and what it means. You don't.



Lie. It is purely your opinion we blaspheme God because you disagree with us. News flash Magenta, your opinion means nothing.



Lie. We do not despise God's sovereignty. We despise you insisting God's power must be used the same way a bully would assume to use their power. We are grateful God is sovereign and doesn't throw His weight around like a bully.



We disagree with your interpretation of what we say, not what the scriptures say. As shown above, you have misunderstood every step of the way. The question is, is it deliberate or are you truly that naive?

What do you think is the foremost thing from which sinners need to be saved: The flesh (sin nature), the world or the devil?

 

[Rufus]

sawdust said:


I have answered. You disagreeing with the answer does not equate to not answering.

Christ died for the ungodly. In this He demonstrated His love. Whether that person is a believer or not we all fit the category of ungodly. Not hard to understand

On the other hand it is written explicitly that Christ laid down his life for his sheep (Jn 14:15), his friends (Jn 15:13), his covenant people (Lk 1:54-55; Isa 53:5-8, 11-12) and for his Church (Act 20:28; Eph 5:25). Evidently, these truths to you are exceedingly "hard to understand", aren't they?

 

[Rufus]

have you and your colleagues heard of the term cutting of your nose to spite your face ?

Because you all doing it quite a lot.

Anyhow Gods word declares he knows who will be filled with the holy spirit before there born, would you like to be shown in scripture ?

I would if you don't mind.

 

[Rufus]

I know! According to some, the good pleasure of God's will equates to no good reason! But then they
say a boatload of things that contradict what Scripture explicitly articulates, and they would rather
blaspheme Him than admit they were wrong, while they boast about defending His character.
They cannot even admit that Paul taught the inability of the natural man... Just as Jesus did.

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

It is God who establishes you in Christ. God made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have not received the spirit of the world. God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. If the Spirit of God lives in you, you are not controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit.

What!? Aren't we told basically that it's man's "freewill" that ultimately chooses to establish himself in Christ?

 

[Rufus]

Applies to believers. Stop trying to apply to unbelievers what is not given them to understand. An unbeliever must first deal with the Gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation. The Gospel is designed for unbelievers to understand.

As long as a person rejects the Gospel any elementary, let alone meat of the word, spiritual teaching will be foolishness to an unbeliever.

When believers don't understand elementary, let alone meat of the word teaching, it is because they are following after their flesh instead of the Spirit.

The only exception to this is if they are given teaching that needs to build on a foundation that has yet to be learned. In that case they may not understand something deeper until they learn something more foundational.

So unbelievers don't have "flesh" (sinful nature) issues, heh? Only believers do? Have you never read:

1 Peter 4:16-18
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
NIV

 

[Rufus]

You have brain cells of Teflon.

Which is saying far more for Cam since you never had any to stick or not stick.

 

[Rufus]

Well at least I haven't lost my sense of humor.......or irony. Neither have I lost my common sense for that matter.

But the true gospel is lost to you...entirely!

 

[cv5]

Yes but some are indoctrinated into "reformed doctrines" and that is where they stay.

Reformed doctrine = Alligator Alcatraz....

 

[Magenta]

So unbelievers don't have "flesh" (sinful nature) issues, heh? Only believers do? Have you never read: 1 Peter 4:16-18
17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us,
what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" NIV

They cannot deal with such verses as Romans 8 v 9, either

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit
of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Romans 8 v 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

 

[Rufus]

I am saying that in Calvinism to tell people to believe the gospel is a lie if they do not have the capacity to believe under some kind of free will choice to begin with (Which I believe happens under God’s drawing and enlightening alone). It would be like telling a computer to believe or a rock. In your view, what is causing the belief is that God and man have zero part in it. So in Calvinism, to tell men to believe in the gospel is a lie because they are simply not capable of doing so. This is what you fail to see in the many problems in the man-made belief of Calvinism. You also do not fairly look at verses that sound like free will or regard words like "all" when telling men to repent. This is why your systematic belief is lopsided and cannot be taken seriously. In addition, the corrupt Modern Bibles (which are the new kids on the block) also push Calvinism in certain verses, as well.



....

No, it's not a lie. Scripture lays out what man's spiritual/moral duty towards God is!

If you feel up the task reconcile the demands of the gospel with the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant promises of God.

 

[Rufus]

They cannot deal with such verses as Romans 8 v 9, either

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit
of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Romans 8 v 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Excellent companion verse! Jesus in Jn 5 also told the God-hating Pharisees that they did not belong to God, nor did they have the love of God within them (the greatest catalyst that moves people's hearts to obey the Truth)...therefore, the were unable to believe His gospel. In other words, their spiritual elevator was always stuck in the basement; for it lacked divine power to go anywhere.

 

[Rufus]

You have God forcing enlightenment on people. How is that free will? We have also been told that God
convinced someone of the truth (as is your general spiel) and then they get to choose whether to believe
or not, which is a massive logic fail. Being convinced of something means you already do believe it. But
they insist on inserting their free will will into the process regardless of how senseless it really is. You
make it sound like you resent having life forced on you. How dare God gift you life, eh? Such a shame.

Should God have just left you dead in your sins? Would you have preferred that?

Ephesians 2 v 4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

And even when God does that, FWers still aren't happy! God determines to leave people in the flesh so that they can freely choose to do whatever they so desire, God is bad! Or when God rescues the hopeless and helpless, He's also bad! The FWers believe they have a mortal lock on what is just, good and fair.

 

[Jordon]

I would if you don't mind.

I would if you don't mind.

Galatians 1:15 Paul
But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace

Did God call Paul by grace in his mothers womb.

And set him apart for what ?

Your answer is here as to what he was set apart for and when he called him by grace,

Acts 9

But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord – Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here – has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’ 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptised, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.


This was God knowing the day when Paul was in his mother's womb he would be called by grace and filled with the holy spirit

 

[Cameron143]

Which is saying far more for Cam since you never had any to stick or not stick.

He's just another in a long line of posters who believe if you don't believe as he does that you haven't considered their arguments and found them wanting, but that you are incapable of considering them at all.

 

[sawdust]

It's hard to work out a salvation one doesn't possess. Even you believe in prevenient grace.
Required is an interesting choice of words. Nothing required is different from no response. God's grace always elicits a response. Some reject and some receive. That's not in question. The question is why?

Huh? Where are you off to now? What has any of that got to do with God's choice regarding which salvation package He gives to whom He wills? That has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's response.

First you try to compare God's will in that situation against God's will regarding us working out the salvation we have. Now you're off to where I have no clue what you are on about. Two wholly different situations. One has absolutely nothing to do with us whatsoever, the other requires obedience to His word.