Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[BillyBob]

This failure despite PhD level lectures already being provided for correction and education. Several times.

I actually listened to a portion of a sermon that you recommended. He spoke for almost 20 minutes without saying anything. I finally gave up waiting on him to teach anything worthwhile.
Does having a PhD qualify a person to ramble on forever and say nothing?
Twenty minutes and all that I got was God asked Eve [what have you done] and she answered Him correctly!

 

[Genez]

This is not in the text. No where in Romans 9 does it state God is responding to the contents of men's hearts. In direct contrast to this, Paul uses the example of Jacob and Esau before they are even born...before they ever had a desire one way or the other.

Go learn the Bible.....

 

[Genez]

AND. The context is not individual salvation. It is the birth right and the worldly blessing that came along with it. Esau lost out on these blessings, NEVER to regain them. For a nation.

I contend that Esau was arguably saved, but lost blessings. And they(blessings) were without repentance.

As long as we draw breath we can be saved by grace through faith.

Got it!

 

[Cameron143]

Go learn the Bible.....

I'll get right on that.

 

[Cameron143]

Go learn the Bible.....

You still have yet to show from Romans 9 which verses show that God is looking upon the hearts of Jacob and Esau. Could you do that for me while I'm studying the Bible?

 

[cv5]

I actually listened to a portion of a sermon that you recommended. He spoke for almost 20 minutes without saying anything. I finally gave up waiting on him to teach anything worthwhile.
Does having a PhD qualify a person to ramble on forever and say nothing?
Twenty minutes and all that I got was God asked Eve [what have you done] and she answered Him correctly!

OK. Now we know that you max out at a 20 minute attention span.

By comparison I have listened to every one of those lectures in their completeness at LEAST 3 or 4 times each. Some being reviewed 5 or 6 times over time at different times so that I absorb and memorize every detail.

And yes, I realize that your are pretty much always bewildered around here. But for pitys sake PLEASE don't insist that everyone else remain bewildered along with you.

Anyhoo, good luck with your study. If you were wise you would pick up where you left off show some true grit and go for the whole course of study enchilada.

 

[Genez]

You still have yet to show from Romans 9 which verses show that God is looking upon the hearts of Jacob and Esau. Could you do that for me while I'm studying the Bible?

Because that is what God says he looks upon in a man.

Jeremiah 17:10
Revelation 2:23

And... you do not know that?

 

[Cameron143]

Because that is what God says he looks upon in a man.

Jeremiah 17:10
Revelation 2:23

And... you do not know that?

Sure. But weren't considering those verses. We were considering Romans 9. None of that is present. It has to be imposed upon the verses.

Why do you suppose Paul doesn't here?

 

[Doll]

Agree, scripture is clear.....

God did NOT create man's fallen nature whereby a person is born unable to respond positively, unless given unique, divine gnosis and enabled prior to believing IN/exercising faith IN Christ Jesus and His Good News.

Completely outside of evangelical Christianity.

Evangelicals selectively,electively,choose to deny the teachings of Jesus and Paul?
Tragic.

 

[Doll]

Let us add in the details....


All (those selected by God in advance, before time) who receive God's offer of salvation do so by their own will (which can only be done after they have been regenerated).

Yeah,that's your doctrine.Not scripture.

 

[cv5]

Sure. But weren't considering those verses. We were considering Romans 9. None of that is present. It has to be imposed upon the verses.

Why do you suppose Paul doesn't here?

Not imposed. Rather inherently axiomatic and universally present.

You know little buddy, the whole counsel of God is a thing.

 

[Doll]

I can't imagine an indwelt Christian of today also believing the Rapture has already occurred.

Something else Christians miss is the import of John 1.
The word is God.

So when we hear of those who deny God must change our natural minds before we can understand the things of God, we deny 1 Corinthians 2 and Mark 4. To name but 2 scriptures.

Which then precludes their understanding the real meaning of the passage, faith comes by hearing, and hearing is the result of the word (John 1) of God.

 

[Cameron143]

Not imposed. Rather inherently axiomatic and universally present.

You know little buddy, the whole counsel of God is a thing.

Yes imposed, because it's not in the text. The Bible is written purposefully. When something isn't included, there is always a reason. It's because the emphasis is elsewhere.

 

[Magenta]

Tell us again how God anesthetized Adam, surgically removed an actual rib bone, and grew Eve in a big test tube.

I know you as an unrepentant liar so it does not surprise me for you act as if I said such things.

 

[Magenta]

Esau being the type representing the enemies of God juxtaposed against Israel, God's chosen people.

Yes, I can see that free willers believe the opposite of what is actually taught in Scripture.

It is their natural bent, after all. Case in point? King Herod, an Edomite... wanted Jesus dead.

 

[Genez]

Sure. But weren't considering those verses. We were considering Romans 9. None of that is present. It has to be imposed upon the verses.

Why do you suppose Paul doesn't here?

I am convinced about you now...

 

[Doll]

Not imposed. Rather inherently axiomatic and universally present.

You know little buddy, the whole counsel of God is a thing.

Losing the condescension may help make a good impression when defending the truth of God's purpose and intent.

Sure, I've gone around with poser trolls and tissue facade posers who snap at the slightest opportunity,such as disagreeing with their Hermaneutics.
Only for a short while and then I put them on ignore.

Just a thought.
If we know no one understands God's truth until he opens them to it, will we open their understanding if we're rude in teaching his truth? When,unless God intervenes first,no one who is still in the natural mind will hear,read,us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You missed the point. The NT clearly shows that faith is the result of hearing, and hearing is the result of the word of God. That's true of every believer, OT or NT. Abraham's wasn't born again by his faith; rather, he was born again by the word of God. His faith merely evidenced that he was already born of God. Everyone born again has imputed righteousness.

how many times does God impute righteousness?

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

believed = Hebrew 'āman = first use in Scripture

counted = Hebrew ḥāšaḇ = first use in Scripture

righteousness = Hebrew ṣᵊḏāqâ = first use in Scripture

There is much truth in Gen 15:6 ... some consider that NT writings overrule OT writings. However, sometimes considering the first use of words or concepts in Scripture reveals that what is revealed in NT is carried over from OT to NT ... i.e. there is no change in facts/circumstances between OT and NT. NT believers believe in the same God OT believers believed in. NT believers believe in the same Messiah OT believers believed in.

In the Gen 15:6 instance, righteousness was not imputed to Abraham until Abraham finally believed God concerning a child being born to him.

God told Abraham in Gen 12 that He would make a great nation out of Abraham ... but Abraham did not believe ... however Abraham did believe God that he should leave so he obeyed and left.

God told Abraham in Gen 13 that He would give the land to Abraham and his seed would be like the dust of the earth ... no indication that Abraham believed.

Genesis 15 sets the pattern for God imputing righteousness:

God reveals truth to mankind
mankind believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness
God gives increase if believed ... God does not increase if not believed.

When Abraham finally believe in Gen 15, that was when God gave increase and righteousness was imputed to him.

Paul is employing the example of Abraham in Romans 4 to demonstrate that salvation has always been by faith, and not the law, to his Jewish audience.

The sequence did not change from Gen 15:6 (OT) to Rom 4 (NT)

yet some who post on this thread claim that faith is "works" on the part of mankind ... can't remember if you're one of them ... but quite a few claim that believing Scripture results in a "works based salvation" when Scripture makes clear that faith is not works and faith in the gospel of Christ results in salvation because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.

Then we've got some who claim (and some agree) that the only response natural man can or will have to the things of God is to "hate God, reject the light, hear the gospel message as foolishness, can't receive or comprehend, inherently opposed", etc., etc. ... you know the whole pitch.

So when I read about Abraham, who obeyed God when God told him to leave Ur in Gen 12 ... but righteousness was not imputed to Abraham until years later in Gen 15 ... I'm going to go with what God reveals concerning mankind being able to hear God and obey even though not as yet righteous.

I think the only agreement you and I have arrived at is that God reaches out to mankind before mankind responds.

I believe natural man can either believe when God reaches out ... or natural man can suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out.

However, my understanding is that you believe natural man cannot hear or if natural man does hear, he or she can only suppress the truth in unrighteousness until God works something within ... whereas I believe that it is the Word of God believed that works that "something" within. The Word of God is a living Word and God works within to bring increase when His Word is believed.

I do not believe your stance that the reason those who reject God do so because they cannot "hear". They hear ... they just reject. I also do not believe mankind rejecting affects the sovereignty of God. God is true if no one believes ... the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord of all if no one believes ... God's Word is true even if no one believes it.
.

 

[Cameron143]

I am convinced about you now...

So...you impose meaning into a text, can't answer questions, and you're convinced about me? Do you think Esau was saved as well?

 

[Cameron143]

how many times does God impute righteousness?

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

believed = Hebrew 'āman = first use in Scripture

counted = Hebrew ḥāšaḇ = first use in Scripture

righteousness = Hebrew ṣᵊḏāqâ = first use in Scripture

There is much truth in Gen 15:6 ... some consider that NT writings overrule OT writings. However, sometimes considering the first use of words or concepts in Scripture reveals that what is revealed in NT is carried over from OT to NT ... i.e. there is no change in facts/circumstances between OT and NT. NT believers believe in the same God OT believers believed in. NT believers believe in the same Messiah OT believers believed in.

In the Gen 15:6 instance, righteousness was not imputed to Abraham until Abraham finally believed God concerning a child being born to him.

God told Abraham in Gen 12 that He would make a great nation out of Abraham ... but Abraham did not believe ... however Abraham did believe God that he should leave so he obeyed and left.

God told Abraham in Gen 13 that He would give the land to Abraham and his seed would be like the dust of the earth ... no indication that Abraham believed.

Genesis 15 sets the pattern for God imputing righteousness:

God reveals truth to mankind
mankind believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness
God gives increase if believed ... God does not increase if not believed.

When Abraham finally believe in Gen 15, that was when God gave increase and righteousness was imputed to him.





The sequence did not change from Gen 15:6 (OT) to Rom 4 (NT)

yet some who post on this thread claim that faith is "works" on the part of mankind ... can't remember if you're one of them ... but quite a few claim that believing Scripture results in a "works based salvation" when Scripture makes clear that faith is not works and faith in the gospel of Christ results in salvation because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.

Then we've got some who claim (and some agree) that the only response natural man can or will have to the things of God is to "hate God, reject the light, hear the gospel message as foolishness, can't receive or comprehend, inherently opposed", etc., etc. ... you know the whole pitch.

So when I read about Abraham, who obeyed God when God told him to leave Ur in Gen 12 ... but righteousness was not imputed to Abraham until years later in Gen 15 ... I'm going to go with what God reveals concerning mankind being able to hear God and obey even though not as yet righteous.

I think the only agreement you and I have arrived at is that God reaches out to mankind before mankind responds.

I believe natural man can either believe when God reaches out ... or natural man can suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God reaches out.

However, my understanding is that you believe natural man cannot hear or if natural man does hear, he or she can only suppress the truth in unrighteousness until God works something within ... whereas I believe that it is the Word of God believed that works that "something" within. The Word of God is a living Word and God works within to bring increase when His Word is believed.

I do not believe your stance that the reason those who reject God do so because they cannot "hear". They hear ... they just reject. I also do not believe mankind rejecting affects the sovereignty of God. God is true if no one believes ... the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord of all if no one believes ... God's Word is true even if no one believes it.
.

Abraham believed God from the beginning. Leaving his home was an act of faith.