Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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No one is arguing against the sovereignty of God.
It is your concept that remain nebulous to us...
Yet you see no need to show reason for why it pertained to the sovereignty of God.
It is the sovereignty of God that keeps alive those who abuse the concept like you have been doing.
You missed the point. The NT clearly shows that faith is the result of hearing, and hearing is the result of the word of God. That's true of every believer, OT or NT. Abraham's wasn't born again by his faith; rather, he was born again by the word of God. His faith merely evidenced that he was already born of God. Everyone born again has imputed righteousness.
Paul is employing the example of Abraham in Romans 4 to demonstrate that salvation has always been by faith, and not the law, to his Jewish audience.
God choosing Jacob but not Esau before they were born exemplifies the sovereignty of God.
God choosing to show mercy or not exemplifies the sovereignty of God.
God making 1 vessel to honor and another to destruction exemplifies the sovereignty of God.
Some were saying that the theme of sovereignty was not the major emphasis of Romans 9. I disagree.
What it shows was that God was not seeking works.
That God is seeking and knowing the inner workings of how a person wishes to think.
God saved Jacob, because God searched his heart, and found Jacob wanting to be with God.
God hated Esau, because God saw in Esau's heart the desire to listen to and follow the thinking of the god of this world.
God is not waiting for us to believe to save us.
God is waiting for us to see for ourselves that we believe.
This is not in the text. No where in Romans 9 does it state God is responding to the contents of men's hearts. In direct contrast to this, Paul uses the example of Jacob and Esau before they are even born...before they ever had a desire one way or the other.
Romans 9 verses 11-13 ~ Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she (Rebekah) was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
If Scripture taught the following about man:
The Fwers, because that's really what they would like to hear anyway
And the Reformed would agree because it was the word of God.
- loves light rather than darkness
- can come to God on his own FW
- is not a slave to sin
- is by nature a child of God
- is not blinded by Satan
- is saved by works
The Fwers, because that's really what they would like to hear anyway
And the Reformed would agree because it was the word of God.
Perhaps it ought to be said who actually hears, since free willers have been known to say that everyone hears, even though that very much directly contradicts what Jesus said. Of course we know free willers have a terrible habit of contradicting and denying Bible verses, even when it is the words of our Lord they mangle and butcher and sometimes rewrite to suit their vain self-exalting theology.
So true BillyBob! And good day...
Man’s heart is deceitful above all things and incurable (Jer 17 v 9), himself full of evil (Mark 7 v 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 v 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 v 44), does not seek for God (Rom 3 v 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom 5 v 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh (Rom 7 v 18), is a slave of sin (Rom 6 v 20, John 8 v 34, 2 Tim 2 v 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor 2 v 14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2 v 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph 2 v 3), is at enmity with God (Eph 2 v 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Rom 8 v 7), blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4 v 4), hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his evil deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 20). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the unregenerated man in Scripture that his inborn inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 v 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph 1 v 4), predestines us to adoption (Eph 1 v 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim 1 v 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thes 2 v 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom 2 v 4, 2 Tim 2 v 24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil 1 v 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 v 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Pet 1 v 3), born again not by our will, effort or desire but by His will and desire (John 1 v 12-13), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 v 65), draws people to Himself (John 6 v 44), predestines us to salvation (Rom 8 v 29-30), and circumcises our heart (with the heart one believes [Rom 10 v 10]) as promised in Deut 30 v 6, all according to His purpose (Phil 2 v 13). The stony ground of man’s wicked heart is not good soil. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said so! (Matt 7 v 18 + 12 v 33; Luke 6 v 43). All this and more weighed against zero verses articulating the so-called “free will” of the natural man, which is a vain man-exalting philosophically based doctrine erroneously and egregiously elevated to Bible truth. Praise God and to His glory, what is impossible with man is possible with God.
Grace isn't necessary when you can do it yourself. . . . . . .You forgot to add grace into the mix.
Grace changes everything.
Nope. You've got that all wrong. What you opine are kindergarten toddler myths long dispelled as infantile.
Unfortunately you flunked out on the Romans 9 course too little buddy. Several times already.
This failure despite PhD level lectures already being provided for correction and education. Several times.
You just are not packing the gear little buddy. And you aren't the only one.
Tell us again how God anesthetized Adam, surgically removed an actual rib bone, and grew Eve in a big test tube.
AND. The context is not individual salvation. It is the birth right and the worldly blessing that came along with it. Esau lost out on these blessings, NEVER to regain them. For a nation.
I contend that Esau was arguably saved, but lost blessings. And they(blessings) were without repentance.
As long as we draw breath we can be saved by grace through faith.