Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Why was John asking people to repent if they were not free to do so? That is my point: this is a scripture that SHOWS we have free will.

Before Jesus had died on the cross, he told people to go and sin no more. These were not people regenerated in the Holy spirit, for the spirit had not been given. His blood had not been shed, yet Jesus expected them to freely choose to stop sinning.

How can you say that scripture does not express free will, when Jesus himself asked people to do other feats of the will, like selling all possessions and forsaking family for Him?

I did not say what you claim. That we have volition is not the issue and I am sorry you cannot see that in light of all the Scriptures given. Making choices is not to be confused with having a will that is free but people do it ALL THE TIME, just like you have. Do you also conflate what people are able to do before and after being set free by Jesus? Praise the Lord if He has set you free from the law of sin and death. I notice you addressed NONE of the verses I gave. What about these questions? How many do you answer yes to?

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[cv5]

It's amazing to me that those who profess to know the most about Jesus act the least like Him. One would think it would be the other way around.

So then why are you so chatty with one of (if not the worst) offender?

And @Rufus .....in terms of bitter rancor he is in a league of his own.

 

[Magenta]

Salvation is tied to personal acts of confession and belief, which are presented as deliberate choices of the heart and mouth.

Yeah, a wicked God-hating heart which needs to be replaced, you think will choose to believe that which it is opposed to and can neither receive nor comprehend while captive to the will of the devil, imagine that, people call being captive to the will of the devil having a will that is free, also blinded to truth, cannot submit to or obey God. An unregenerated person is of the flesh. Flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. It cannot please God. That is the truth of Scripture. How many of these verses do you also disagree with?

Man’s heart is deceitful above all things and incurable (Jer 17 v 9), himself full of evil (Mark 7 v 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 v 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 v 44), does not seek for God (Rom 3 v 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom 5 v 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh (Rom 7 v 18), is a slave of sin (Rom 6 v 20, John 8 v 34, 2 Tim 2 v 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor 2 v 14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2 v 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph 2 v 3), is at enmity with God (Eph 2 v 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Rom 8 v 7), blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4 v 4), hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his evil deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 20). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the unregenerated man in Scripture that his inborn inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 v 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph 1 v 4), predestines us to adoption (Eph 1 v 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim 1 v 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thes 2 v 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom 2 v 4, 2 Tim 2 v 24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil 1 v 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 v 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Pet 1 v 3), born again not by our will, effort or desire but by His will and desire (John 1 v 12-13), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 v 65), draws people to Himself (John 6 v 44), predestines us to salvation (Rom 8 v 29-30), and circumcises our heart (with the heart one believes [Rom 10 v 10]) as promised in Deut 30 v 6, all according to His purpose (Phil 2 v 13). The stony ground of man’s wicked heart is not good soil. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said so! (Matt 7 v 18 + 12 v 33; Luke 6 v 43). All this and more weighed against zero verses articulating the so-called “free will” of the natural man, which is a vain man-exalting philosophically based doctrine erroneously and egregiously elevated to Bible truth. Praise God and to His glory, what is impossible with man is possible with God.

 

[cv5]

Hello NSH... It is not anywhere stated in Scripture that man was created with a will that is free. Man was created good and he disobeyed God, which God knew man was going to do. Man was then enslaved to sin. The real issue is what Scripture says of the natural, unregenerated man = he is a slave to sin, is at enmity with God, a lover of darkness and defined as darkness itself, full of evil, opposed to the spiritual things of God, refusing to come into the light, does not seek for God, cannot come to God on his own, hostile to/at enmity with God and incapable of obeying and/or submitting to God, nothing good dwells in his flesh which serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. He is blinded by the god of this world and the gospel is foolishness to him, as he can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God which are discerned only through the Spirit. He has an incurably wicked heart which needs replacing and people essentially claim this unregenerated man is able to believe with that God-hating heart. Those who promote free will essentially reject what is said of the natural man and instead ascribe to him qualities and characteristics and abilities that only the regenerated spiritually alive man is capable of. They claim a lot of things that do not align with Scripture, such as: everyone hears, the gospel is not hid, man is not blind to the truth, man is not such a bad guy and can as a bad tree produce the good fruit of faith (since none are good, no not one according to Scripture, but FWers mock, reject, contradict, and deny such Scriptural truths). There are a lot of Pelagian heretics here. We have also been told faith is not a gift from God even though Scripture says all good things come from God. Some also conflate being spiritually dead with being physically dead but then are dishonest about doing so even though they repeatedly tell those they disagree with on this issue to go preach in cemeteries. They have even told us that the gospel is not a spiritual matter, and 1 Cor 2:14 is a favourite verse of theirs to rewrite.

The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his uncircumcised heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart cannot be changed. He hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!

Pretty much all of what you say has already been de-Calvinized and/or debunked. But thanks for playing.

 

[cv5]

When Scripture speaks of the meat of God's Word I very much doubt it means caviar and lobster tails.

Since in fact these imagined "delicacies" are among unclean foods.

Well, it COULD be that concocting bogus doctrine about forbidding certain foods is......evil. But then again, I am not sure of your intent by these strange accusations.

[1Ti 4:1-5 NKJV]

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

3 forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;

5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

[sawdust]

But being raised from the dead is how the elect become believers

According to you, not me. The promise of salvation is to those who believe not those who are alive.

 

[Magenta]

It's amazing to me that those who profess to know the most about Jesus act the least like Him. One would think it would be the other way around.

Knowing about Him is certainly not the same as knowing Him. Knowing God is only possible for those to whom
Jesus chooses to reveal Him. Meanwhile we have FWers claiming spiritual revelation is not necessary, and
makes God unfair since it is personal in nature and varies from person to person as the Bible plainly shows.
The vile blasphemies that come from people like cv5 are quite disgusting. Still, he has fans. Go figure.

Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

 

[Cameron143]

So then why are you so chatty with one of (if not the worst) offender?

And @Rufus .....in terms of bitter rancor he is in a league of his own.

I've never condoned poor behavior from anyone. And I've never received a derogatory statement from @Magenta or @Rufus, even during a discussion in which we disagree. You, on the other hand, seem to make a point of insulting. Now, I don't even need to be a part of a conversation to be the subject of your rude behavior. Nothing exudes so much the aroma of Christ as constant denigration.

 

[cv5]

I've never condoned poor behavior from anyone. And I've never received a derogatory statement from @Magenta or @Rufus, even during a discussion in which we disagree. You, on the other hand, seem to make a point of insulting. Now, I don't even need to be a part of a conversation to be the subject of your rude behavior. Nothing exudes so much the aroma of Christ as constant denigration.

Ok thanks buddy. Well, at least I can offer correction when I can.

Your entrenched notions of post millennialism, super-determinism, also your rejection of the rapture do not accurately represent anything near sound Biblical doctrine. Just to let you know.

Furthermore, it is not I who habitually excoriates/condemns posters by labeling them as "God haters" and "blasphemers". So my supposed transgressions are lukewarm at worst. And humorous at best.

@Magenta said:
"The vile blasphemies that come from people like cv5 are quite disgusting."

 

[Cameron143]

Ok thanks buddy. Well, at least I can offer correction when I can.

Your entrenched notions of post millennialism, super-determinism, also your rejection of the rapture do not accurately represent anything near sound Biblical doctrine. Just to let you know.

Furthermore, it is not I who habitually excoriates/condemns posters by labeling them as "God haters" and "blasphemers". So my supposed transgressions are lukewarm at worst. And humorous at best.

@Magenta said:
"The vile blasphemies that come from people like cv5 are quite disgusting."

I don't reject the rapture, I'm not a super-determinist. I do believe all the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ.

And I get it. A mirror was held up before you and you chose to walk away unchanged. You're only a little bad.

Grace and peace.

 

[cv5]

I don't reject the rapture, I'm not a super-determinist. I do believe all the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ.

And I get it. A mirror was held up before you and you chose to walk away unchanged. You're only a little bad.

Grace and peace.

You don't reject the rapture? Sure you do in the pre-millennial sense. You just think that it has already happened....right?

And you have earlier CONFIRMED (multiple times under painstaking scrutiny) that you DO believe in "pre-birth chosen sovereign election" aka super-determinism.

Why do you choose to dodge and deny and distort what you say you believe little buddy? It's not a good look.

I sure don't do that as regards my own doctrinal beliefs. Ever. Like never ever.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I was reading my bible the other day when I thought of this thread. I was reading about how John the baptist was telling people to repent for the kingdom of God was near. Clearly, no one before Jesus could have been regenerated. Clearly they were all sinners and were being told to change their ways out of free choice. He was baptizing people in the river as a symbol that they were leveling themselves in preparation for Christ to be revealed.

So did they have a choice, or did God orchestrate John the baptist for show only? Were those who followed John misled thinking they had decided to embrace a better path, expecting the savior to come soon? When people heard the voice of John calling in the wilderness and they came near and softened themselves and stopped doing evil, was this not free choice? Clearly John had a lot of followers and it was going quite well for his repentance movement.

mankind would not know anything about God ... whether God exists or does not exist ... if not for the wondrous creation He brought forth from the word of His mouth ... The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork (Psalm 19:1). Creation is one of the ways in which God brings the attention of mankind to Himself.

God has also given us His Word so we can know more about Him than what is revealed in creation. This is another way in which God reveals Himself.

In addition, God sends His faithful believers to preach and teach so that mankind may know Him.

And the greatest of all revealings is the Lord Jesus Christ ... Who is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15) ... Who is the Light of the world (John 8:12) ... Who is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6) ... the One by Whom all things consist (Col 1:17).

On the one hand, it is correct that no man will turn from the things of this world to seek God. However, God is greater than the world and it is God Who reaches out to mankind ... and I believe God reaches out to every single person who has ever lived, is alive now, or will live in the future. I also believe God reaches out more than one time during a person's life.

Once God reaches out a person either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. If a person believes, he or she receives the blessing God promises. If a person rejects, he or she receives the consequence of not having believed.
.

 

[Rufus]

No.... It is when a label triggers bigotry and instant judging, then it becomes a problem.

You label.
Throw them into a box.
And, never deal with the person, but only with the image you have to lock them into.

You always win the argument that way (in your own mind).

Oh...I see. So what you're saying is that you and your other FW comrades are totally free of all obstinacy and intolerance when it comes to your own opinions or prejudices. And this freedom accounts for how you and your ilk can shamelessly and audaciously blaspheme God, deliberately mischaracterize the Reformed Faith and glibly pervert the Word of God. Self-righteous much?

 

[Cameron143]

You don't reject the rapture? Sure you do in the pre-millennial sense. You just think that it has already happened....right?

And you have earlier CONFIRMED (multiple times under painstaking scrutiny) that you DO believe in "pre-birth chosen sovereign election" aka super-determinism.

Why do you choose to dodge and deny and distort what you say you believe little buddy? It's not a good look.

I sure don't do that as regards my own doctrinal beliefs. Ever. Like never ever.

So you admit I don't reject the rapture. Awesome.

While I do believe God has chosen a people for Himself in eternity past, I don't believe God forces salvation upon anyone. All who receive God's offer of salvation do so by their own will. If you actually read attempting to understand rather than denigrate, you could learn much. So contrary to what you say, it is your misunderstanding and prejudice that makes my doctrine seem inconsistent, and not what I actually post.

But as little in the way of edification results from a discourse with you, I'll bid you grace and peace.

 

[cv5]

Oh...I see. So what you're saying is that you and your other FW comrades are totally free of all obstinacy and intolerance when it comes to your own opinions or prejudices. And this freedom accounts for how you and your ilk can shamelessly and audaciously blaspheme God, deliberately mischaracterize the Reformed Faith and glibly pervert the Word of God. Self-righteous much?

Nah, "we" don't profess some kind of sublime behavioral perfection.

We just do not go so far as to brandish devastating condemnations such as "blaspheme God". Like you just did. And @Magenta , who also uses that term and "God haters" all the time.

 

[HeIsHere]

So you admit I don't reject the rapture. Awesome.

While I do believe God has chosen a people for Himself in eternity past, I don't believe God forces salvation upon anyone. All who receive God's offer of salvation do so by their own will. If you actually read attempting to understand rather than denigrate, you could learn much. So contrary to what you say, it is your misunderstanding and prejudice that makes my doctrine seem inconsistent, and not what I actually post.

But as little in the way of edification results from a discourse with you, I'll bid you grace and peace.

Let us add in the details....


All (those selected by God in advance, before time) who receive God's offer of salvation do so by their own will (which can only be done after they have been regenerated).

 

[HeIsHere]

Nah, "we" don't profess some kind of sublime behavioral perfection.

We just do not go so far as to brandish devastating condemnations such as "blaspheme God". Like you just did. And @Magenta , who also uses that term and "God haters" all the time.

We have clearly and consistently delineated between the morally arbitrary god of Calvinism from the true God of scripture.

What is more blasphemous than to deny that Christ Jesus died for all!!

 

[HeIsHere]

Why was John asking people to repent if they were not free to do so? That is my point: this is a scripture that SHOWS we have free will.

Before Jesus had died on the cross, he told people to go and sin no more. These were not people regenerated in the Holy spirit, for the spirit had not been given. His blood had not been shed, yet Jesus expected them to freely choose to stop sinning.

How can you say that scripture does not express free will, when Jesus himself asked people to do other feats of the will, like selling all possessions and forsaking family for Him?

Agree, scripture is clear.....

God did NOT create man's fallen nature whereby a person is born unable to respond positively, unless given unique, divine gnosis and enabled prior to believing IN/exercising faith IN Christ Jesus and His Good News.

Completely outside of evangelical Christianity.

 

[Rufus]

Actually, it was Eve who succumbed to the carrot [pride] held out by satan:

Genesis 3:5-6

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
.

Pride comes from within a person's heart -- not from without. Eve was tempted from without and eventually HER pride motivated her to believe the serpent's lie. But with Adam, it was all HIS pride!

Tell me: Who held out the "carrot of pride" to Lucifer before he sinned and was cast out of heaven?

 

[Cameron143]

Let us add in the details....


All (those selected by God in advance, before time) who receive God's offer of salvation do so by their own will (which can only be done after they have been regenerated).

Another who deliberately misrepresents what I believe. Selection is not a biblical term. Election is. Big difference.

Question: when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, was Lazarus made alive and then responded, or did he respond and was made alive?