Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

there are many ways in which he prefigures Christ.

the first husband and first wife prefigure Christ our Husband and the church His betrothed bride.

out of his death and resurrection, Woman was created, just as Christ died and rose, and from this the church.

he gave her a new name, as Christ will also give us new names on white stones.

firstborn and Firstborn, only begotten.

not from the garden and put in it to tend it, not of this world but entered into it to reconcile it.

Woman was deceived and poisoned, we are rife with false doctrines and backbiting.

because of His great love, Christ laid down His life voluntarily in order to save us. He became sin in order to bear ours.

Adam intentionally chose death. what do you think Adam intended to do? what fits the pattern?

Thank God you are here doing the heavy lifting. I'm just too swamped with work and mentally exhausted and my energy eroded to pitch in much at all.....

 

[Genez]

Adam laid down His life for His bride......A type/figure. A shadow of the reality of the Christ to come....EVERYTHING in His word points to and paints a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Someone ran out of bounds with that one.

 

[Doll]

I agree about Adam shirking his responsibility with his wife. But scripture is quite clear: Adam was not deceived from without. Self-deceived? YES! But not deceived from without. Prideful? YES! This was Adam's core sin because, unlike Eve, he had much greater knowledge of God -- in fact, like the angels, Adam knew in his heart that God was the real deal. That He really existed, etc.

One reason Eve is not charged with bringing death to all mankind, as Adam is in Rom 5, is because Eve was forgiven by God and reconciled to Him.

And this last thought raises this question: Why does the promised Messiah in Gen 3:15 descend from the woman's seed and not Adam's? The seed of a woman would have been a totally foreign concept to the ancient world because mankind naturally and rightfully thought in terms of man's seed that is planted into a woman's ovum and eventually brings forth a living being (Gen 38:9). God bypassing Adam altogether makes perfectly good sense since the Holy One that would one day come could not descend from an unforgiven, unreconciled, condemned sinner. So that left only the Eve option. Also, it's very likely that all of Adam's progeny inherit his sinful nature because it could well be passed on only by a male's sperm. There's no evidence in scripture, however, that Christ came into this world with a sin nature.

Deception is, to cause to believe what is not true; mislead.To catch by guile; ensnare.

Adam knew they weren't to eat. God told them they would die if they did.
The serpent questioned what God told Adam directly. He used guile on an innocent couple who didn't know such a caniving spirit.

If Adam wasn't deceived then he wilfully chose to disobey God.
Maybe that is why Eve was forgiven and reconciled back to God.

She was told of God's prohibition by Adam. Adam did not lead her to the path of righteousness,obedience, but instead let her eat. And then set a bad example by eating after her.

I think God had to forgive Eve so that Jesus would later be born without Sin through her seed,as you noted.

Though God did promise there would be enmity between her seed and that of the Serpent.

Besides, God chose whom would be Saved by name when he wrote them in the Lambs book of Life. And before the foundation of this Earth.

Those names would be unnecessary if God forgave both Adam and Eve.

 

[Jordon]

I see you are unfamiliar with my view regarding God's requirement for salvation. For the full explanation please read the Kerygma thread or the corresponding Lesson about the Christian Creed on our website, but here is an introduction:

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.

The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to seek salvation (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith (per Rom. 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16 & 5:8-19).

Hope now you have learned not to say enough said until enough is said.

I can answer in the basics for now

So I could spend weeks studying what you've wrote here.

I asked a basic question

Whom the lord sets free will be free in deed.

So here it is

Who the lord sets free will do his will which is free

If your not doing his will it's not free.

Enough said

 

[Jordon]

I think if folks want to discuss it......They should listen to the lectures that @cv5 and I have posted.


I know about and have studied the Idea that Adam was a rotten sinner and blamed God and his wife.....I was wrong.

Please listen to the very astute lectures that we have shared. Then you would know the perspective we are coming from.

I'll listen when I get an answer of cv5

 

[Rufus]

well not completely Judah the first son of the tribe of Judah was involved in a plan to sell there brother Joseph.

But how can the seed of eve be cut of From Adam, when they gave birth to Cain and able.

You would think by the time of Juda which is after flood the seed would not still be acting like Cain ?
You may be stretching your imagination to far there.

What in the world does Judah have to do with Adam or Eve? And I don't understand the question you ask in the second sentence at all.

 

[Rufus]

You could take it or leave it. But they give you far better insight to what we are saying.

You could listen to them and then teach us where you think he is wrong.

Give em a shot.

That's OK. I'll stick with my infallible and trustworthy Divine Teacher.

 

[Jordon]

What in the world does Judah have to do with Adam or Eve? And I don't understand the question you ask in the second sentence at all.

Adam sold his wife Judha sold his brother

 

[Rufus]

Does a judge "owe" a person, who ran a red light, a video presentation proving what he had done?
Does the judge owe it to him? No!

Likewise.

God does not "owe" the condemned anything other than grace removing all doubt concerning their guilt.

..........

Why does grace remove all doubt. Sinners' actual sins alone raises doubts? The all-knowing righteous Judge of all the earth is uncertain about their sins?

The only Person God owes anything to in this universe is to be true to Himself and who He is in his essence. He owes it to Himself that all his decrees and actions bring him Glory since there is no one greater than He is. But the Potter doesn't owe his pots anything; for both the righteous and the wicked will glorify God.

 

[Rufus]

Adam sold his wife Judha sold his brother

How much did Adam get for Eve? Was it more than 30 pieces of silver -- the price for which Judas sold out Jesus?

I have to say you go down some strange rabbit trails...which makes you a pretty tough act to follow.

 

[cv5]

Actually @Rufus buddy, you forgot about "successful resisted". Yep.

"not deceived" by Satan
"successful resisted" Satan

And a number of other wonderful attributes as well.

Thanks @Rufus buddy for your attention to this matter.

BTW @Rufus buddy, I am NOT saying that Adam's "not deceived" and "successful resisted" are the same as Christ doing the same.

They are NOT the same. Other than being a "type".

It is impossible to deceive Christ, and His resistance is infinite and irresistible.

Not-the-same.

 

[Jordon]

How much did Adam get for Eve? Was it more than 30 pieces of silver -- the price for which Judas sold out Jesus?

I have to say you go down some strange rabbit trails...which makes you a pretty tough act to follow.

no Adam got a bite of the cherry

 

[GWH]

I can answer in the basics for now

So I could spend weeks studying what you've wrote here.

I asked a basic question

Whom the lord sets free will be free in deed.

So here it is

Who the lord sets free will do his will which is free

If your not doing his will it's not free.

Enough said

Well, it took me years to learn what I wrote there.

What you said prompts these questions:

1. Are you not free to cooperate with your wife's will?
2. Does not doing His will indicate being free?

 

[Jordon]

How much did Adam get for Eve? Was it more than 30 pieces of silver -- the price for which Judas sold out Jesus?

I have to say you go down some strange rabbit trails...which makes you a pretty tough act to follow.

your the one who's on a rabbit trail buddy.

As your also selling your brother

 

[Jordon]

Well, it took me years to learn what I wrote there.

What you said prompts these questions:

1. Are you not free to cooperate with your wife's will?
2. Does not doing His will indicate being free?

yes

 

[Rufus]

Deception is, to cause to believe what is not true; mislead.To catch by guile; ensnare.

Adam knew they weren't to eat. God told them they would die if they did.
The serpent questioned what God told Adam directly. He used guile on an innocent couple who didn't know such a caniving spirit.

If Adam wasn't deceived then he wilfully chose to disobey God.
Maybe that is why Eve was forgiven and reconciled back to God.

She was told of God's prohibition by Adam. Adam did not lead her to the path of righteousness,obedience, but instead let her eat. And then set a bad example by eating after her.

I think God had to forgive Eve so that Jesus would later be born without Sin through her seed,as you noted.

Though God did promise there would be enmity between her seed and that of the Serpent.

Besides, God chose whom would be Saved by name when he wrote them in the Lambs book of Life. And before the foundation of this Earth.

Those names would be unnecessary if God forgave both Adam and Eve.

Absolutely! Adam's sin was most egregious because he did indeed willfully choose to sin with his eyes wide open! He deliberately chose to sin even though his knowledge of God was much greater than Eve's! I'm mindful of Jesus' words: "To whom much is given, much will be required"! Adam was given a lot!

Also, not only did God bypass Adam completely in terms of the Messiah's genealogy -- but it gets even worse for Adam -- a man who is crowned with a glorious halo and hailed as the humanity's superhero of faith and altruism and sacrificial love and many more sugar-coated accolades: This "great hero" was also bypassed by God for being the model and template for humanity's spiritual father. In his place Abraham received that honor!

 

[Rufus]

your the one who's on a rabbit trail buddy.

As your also selling your brother

I don't have any genealogical brothers!

 

[Jordon]

 

[Jordon]

I don't have any genealogical brothers!

oh did you cut them of too

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her.

Do not agree that Adam was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her.

Adam had direct instruction from God to not eat of that tree. He told Eve what God said to him. Eve had no direct interaction with God at the time he gave instructions to Adam.

Agree.

Adam, was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her from his place in the forbidden tree.

Do not agree that Adam was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her.

Genesis 3:6 (NIV) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

This verse does not state that Adam was with Eve when the serpent beguiled her.

This verse states that Adam was with Eve only when she gave him the fruit.

If man is meant to be the head of the woman,Adam failed in that regard this time .
He didn't stop Eve from eating the forbidden fruit. And he ate of it after she did. Having just heard everything the serpent said first.

There is no indication that Adam was with Eve when satan spoke to her.

Your claim that "he didn't stop Eve" (which is an assumption) does not align with your claim that "man is meant to be the head of the woman" (which is true/not an assumption).

What you want me to believe is that Adam stood by ... listened to satan lie to Eve about what God told Adam ... then, without any correction of the lie of satan, Adam stood silent as he allowed Eve to eat in disobedience of Gen 2:17 ... then after that he decided he should eat in obedience to Gen 2:24.

So Adam was disobedient to Gen 2:17 ... but obedient to Gen 2:24 ??? that's what you want me to believe ???

I agree only that Adam ate after Eve ate.

And by that one man,Adam,Sin entered this world.

Not by one woman,Eve.

By the one man,Adam,who did not lead Eve to follow God's first law.

There is no indication in the text that Adam was with Eve when satan beguiled her in order to "lead Eve to follow God's first law" ... so when Adam became aware that Eve had eaten, what Adam did was follow what is written in Gen 2:24.

The text indicates Adam was with Eve only when Eve gave him the fruit.

The text also indicates that Adam hearkened to the voice of his wife ... Adam did not hearken to the serpent. If Adam had been present when the serpent spoke to Eve, would Adam not have "hearkened" to the voice of the serpent as Eve had done? ... or stopped Eve from eating?

No, that wily, sneaky, despicable satan approached Eve when she was away from Adam and he deceived her with cunning craftiness.
.