Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

praying for patience in enduring/answerine unlearned questions ...
.

unlearned question ? Or unlearned explanations ?

 

[Doll]

How could Adam have resisted Satan since he never was tempted or deceived by him?

He was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her.
Adam had direct instruction from God to not eat of that tree. He told Eve what God said to him. Eve had no direct interaction with God at the time he gave instructions to Adam.

Adam, was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her from his place in the forbidden tree.

Genesis 3:6 (NIV) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.


If man is meant to be the head of the woman,Adam failed in that regard this time .
He didn't stop Eve from eating the forbidden fruit. And he ate of it after she did. Having just heard everything the serpent said first.

And by that one man,Adam,Sin entered this world.

Not by one woman,Eve.

By the one man,Adam,who did not lead Eve to follow God's first law.

 

[Cameron143]

there are many ways in which he prefigures Christ.

the first husband and first wife prefigure Christ our Husband and the church His betrothed bride.

out of his death and resurrection, Woman was created, just as Christ died and rose, and from this the church.

he gave her a new name, as Christ will also give us new names on white stones.

firstborn and Firstborn, only begotten.

not from the garden and put in it to tend it, not of this world but entered into it to reconcile it.

Woman was deceived and poisoned, we are rife with false doctrines and backbiting.

because of His great love, Christ laid down His life voluntarily in order to save us. He became sin in order to bear ours.

Adam intentionally chose death. what do you think Adam intended to do? what fits the pattern?

Adam could not save his bride. When he sinned, he only made his salvation necessary as well. And, of course, all humanity.

 

[Doll]

@posthuman and @cv5 are not saying that Adam was chosen to bear the sins of the many.

Adam was a type/figure of Christ. Not The Christ.

@cv5 has mentioned many times to do the studies.

Adam laid down His life for His bride......A type/figure. A shadow of the reality of the Christ to come....EVERYTHING in His word points to and paints a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus laid down His life for His bride. The Lord Jesus Christ.

Adam And Eve... What really happened?

1st Adam vs. The 2nd Adam. They're more alike than you might think

Adam, Eve & Satan. Do you really think you know this story?

Deep Teaching On Adam & Eve. This is the stuff you're not supposed to hear

Did Adam Blame Eve? It's not what you may have thought

Eve Is Dying Right In Front of Adam. If you were Adam, what would you do?

Satan, Why Did You Pick A Snake? Would Adam have been fooled by a snake?

Why A Tree Of Death? What caused the Tree of Death to be put in the garden of Eden?

Genesis 2 and 3... NOT Seeker Sensitive! That's why most churches don't teach this

"Adam laid down His life for His bride......A type/figure. A shadow of the reality of the Christ to come....EVERYTHING in His word points to and paints a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ."
Adam Sinned when he disobeyed the first law of God.
Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Jesus never Sinned.

 

[Jordon]

Adam could not save his bride. When he sinned, he only made his salvation necessary as well. And, of course, all humanity.

I want to know is he saying metaphorically or is saying it was Adams intent ?

Is he saying it was. Foreshadowing in a metaphorical sense of is he saying it was planned by God, ?

 

[Cameron143]

I want to know is he saying metaphorically or is saying it was Adams intent ?

Is he saying it was. Foreshadowing in a metaphorical sense of is he saying it was planned by God, ?

He's saying in actuality as I understand his argument. But it doesn't matter, you can't metaphorically be representing Christ unless what you are proposing is actually possible.

 

[Jordon]

He's saying in actuality as I understand his argument. But it doesn't matter, you can't metaphorically be representing Christ unless what you are proposing is actually possible.

This is what driving me bonkers im not getting a definite answer from them. And it sounds like it is an actuality to them as they have on many occasions become offended, when we ask questions, you don't get offended by an metaphorical explanation do you ?

 

[Cameron143]

This is what driving me bonkers im not getting a definite answer from them. And it sounds like it is an actuality to them as they have on many occasions become offended, when we ask questions, you don't get offended by an metaphorical explanation do you ?

No I don't. It's a case of overspiritualizing. It's often done with parables as well.

 

[Jordon]

No I don't. It's a case of overspiritualizing. It's often done with parables as well.

I've been debating whether I should go back to just reading and just posting an emoji and just popping in once a week, coz it's time consuming all this,

But yeah I feal like I'm been hoodwinked or something, it's like Game of poker people are playing to win a gotcha moment, because they aren't stating what they actually believe


It simple, you start with saying I believe this.

Or this is an idea

Or this is a metaphorical spiritual explanation

 

[Rufus]

there are many ways in which he prefigures Christ.

the first husband and first wife prefigure Christ our Husband and the church His betrothed bride.

out of his death and resurrection, Woman was created, just as Christ died and rose, and from this the church.

he gave her a new name, as Christ will also give us new names on white stones.

firstborn and Firstborn, only begotten.

not from the garden and put in it to tend it, not of this world but entered into it to reconcile it.

Woman was deceived and poisoned, we are rife with false doctrines and backbiting.

because of His great love, Christ laid down His life voluntarily in order to save us. He became sin in order to bear ours.

Adam intentionally chose death. what do you think Adam intended to do? what fits the pattern?

Eve prefigures the Bride of Christ in several positive ways, and has long been considered a type of Christ's bride. Adam, on the other hand, prefigures Christ only negatively in scripture. Adam was EVERYTHING the Last Adam wasn't!

 

[posthuman]

In post 18322 and post 18323 @posthuman @cv5

All your both being encouraged to say is what you both actually believe

So if you can start by saying I believe Adam was chosen to bore sin if that's your answer then at least we have a starting point to which we can progressively then talk about our beliefs.

i can tell you right now that we both believe Adam sinned, that he did wrong, and that he was not a propitiation for his wife in the way you're suggesting.

but what i believe and i think CV5 does too, is that Adam was trying to save his wife but taking sin upon himself. he did it for her sake, just as God said, hearkening to her voice.


the reason to study this is to understand what Christ did for us, not to glorify Adam.

 

[Magenta]

out of his death and resurrection, Woman was created, just as Christ died and rose, and from this the church.

Adam did not die in order for Eve to be made.

firstborn and Firstborn, only begotten.

Adam was not born... neither born, nor begotten.

Woman was deceived and poisoned, we are rife with false doctrines and backbiting.

Adam was held responsible for sin and death entering the world... followed by the corruption of all creation.

because of His great love, Christ laid down His life voluntarily in order to save us. He became sin in order to bear ours.

Adam intentionally chose death. what do you think Adam intended to do? what fits the pattern?

What fits the Biblical pattern is Adam was of the natural world and chose worldly things over God.

James 1 verses 14-15; 1 John 2 verse 16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

 

[Jordon]

i can tell you right now that we both believe Adam sinned, that he did wrong, and that he was not a propitiation for his wife in the way you're suggesting.

but what i believe and i think CV5 does too, is that Adam was trying to save his wife but taking sin upon himself. he did it for her sake, just as God said, hearkening to her voice.


the reason to study this is to understand what Christ did for us, not to glorify Adam.

ok, God searches your heart, and if that is what Adam really thought he was doing, there would be compassionate grounds for less of a sentence, he got a lifetime the reality is people do the wrong thing.

By the account of the bible he was with her and and he shouldn't have let it happen in the first place

But defending the husband out of all the times your wife may have drove you bonkers, is easily done lol.

But there's nothing to defend here bro he did the wrong thing, his punishment reflected that.

The better thought would be he served his punishment admirably as he carried it for 930 years

 

[Rufus]

He was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her.
Adam had direct instruction from God to not eat of that tree. He told Eve what God said to him. Eve had no direct interaction with God at the time he gave instructions to Adam.

Adam, was with Eve when the serpent spoke to her from his place in the forbidden tree.

Genesis 3:6 (NIV) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.


If man is meant to be the head of the woman,Adam failed in that regard this time .
He didn't stop Eve from eating the forbidden fruit. And he ate of it after she did. Having just heard everything the serpent said first.

And by that one man,Adam,Sin entered this world.

Not by one woman,Eve.

By the one man,Adam,who did not lead Eve to follow God's first law.

I agree about Adam shirking his responsibility with his wife. But scripture is quite clear: Adam was not deceived from without. Self-deceived? YES! But not deceived from without. Prideful? YES! This was Adam's core sin because, unlike Eve, he had much greater knowledge of God -- in fact, like the angels, Adam knew in his heart that God was the real deal. That He really existed, etc.

One reason Eve is not charged with bringing death to all mankind, as Adam is in Rom 5, is because Eve was forgiven by God and reconciled to Him.

And this last thought raises this question: Why does the promised Messiah in Gen 3:15 descend from the woman's seed and not Adam's? The seed of a woman would have been a totally foreign concept to the ancient world because mankind naturally and rightfully thought in terms of man's seed that is planted into a woman's ovum and eventually brings forth a living being (Gen 38:9). God bypassing Adam altogether makes perfectly good sense since the Holy One that would one day come could not descend from an unforgiven, unreconciled, condemned sinner. So that left only the Eve option. Also, it's very likely that all of Adam's progeny inherit his sinful nature because it could well be passed on only by a male's sperm. There's no evidence in scripture, however, that Christ came into this world with a sin nature.

 

[Jordon]

I agree about Adam shirking his responsibility with his wife. But scripture is quite clear: Adam was not deceived from without. Self-deceived? YES! But not deceived from without. Prideful? YES! This was Adam's core sin because, unlike Eve, he had much greater knowledge of God -- in fact, like the angels, Adam knew in his heart that God was the real deal. That He really existed, etc.

One reason Eve is not charged with bringing death to all mankind, as Adam is in Rom 5, is because Eve was forgiven by God and reconciled to Him.

And this last thought raises this question: Why does the promised Messiah in Gen 3:15 descend from the woman's seed and not Adam's? The seed of a woman would have been a totally foreign concept to the ancient world because mankind naturally and rightfully thought in terms of man's seed that is planted into a woman's ovum and eventually brings forth a living being (Gen 38:9). God bypassing Adam altogether makes perfectly good sense since the Holy One that would one day come could not descend from an unforgiven, unreconciled, condemned sinner. So that left only the Eve option. Also, it's very likely that all of Adam's progeny inherit his sinful nature because it could well be passed on only by a male's sperm. There's no evidence in scripture, however, that Christ came into this world with a sin nature.

well not completely Judah the first son of the tribe of Judah was involved in a plan to sell there brother Joseph.

But how can the seed of eve be cut of From Adam, when they gave birth to Cain and able.

You would think by the time of Juda which is after flood the seed would not still be acting like Cain ?
You may be stretching your imagination to far there.

 

[Genez]

I have not put words in your mouth. In fact, your own mouth condemns you...and now you want to backtrack from your stated sentiments that God owes all mankind his grace? You cannot even see grace or acknowledge it as being God's unmerited favor because that would be a huge fly in your heretical ointment.

Does a judge "owe" a person, who ran a red light, a video presentation proving what he had done?
Does the judge owe it to him? No!

Likewise.

God does not "owe" the condemned anything other than grace removing all doubt concerning their guilt.

..........

 

[Kroogz]

"Adam laid down His life for His bride......A type/figure. A shadow of the reality of the Christ to come....EVERYTHING in His word points to and paints a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ."
Adam Sinned when he disobeyed the first law of God.
Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Jesus never Sinned.

Yep. I totally agree.

 

[Kroogz]

ok and what power did they have after fall ? What power did they have between fall and God clothing them. And what power did have after God clothed them

Apparently they had power and they both made an honest confession to God after the fall ? but yet Adam was given a 900 year sentence of punishment.

It's a bit of a dilemma because,
Take this for instance, the maximum sentence is 23 years in prison for a 26 year old committing a certain type of murder for in the UK

But yet a 15 year old only gets 17 years in prison. So for the same act of murder, theres only a 5 year difference, because a 15 year old is considered less accountable than a 16 year old.

But Adam was given a sentence for his whole life until the day he gave up the ghost in his body.

I would say his confession was worthless, and he was held completely accountable for his sin of disobedience and not only that but his sin of accepting satans offering. Not only that his sin of letting his wife sin

What do you think ?

I think if folks want to discuss it......They should listen to the lectures that @cv5 and I have posted.


I know about and have studied the Idea that Adam was a rotten sinner and blamed God and his wife.....I was wrong.

Please listen to the very astute lectures that we have shared. Then you would know the perspective we are coming from.

 

[Kroogz]

Why would I want to be dumbed-down? Besides, are the lot of your vaunted teachers able to compete with Holy Spirit in the teaching and illumination departments?

You could take it or leave it. But they give you far better insight to what we are saying.

You could listen to them and then teach us where you think he is wrong.

Give em a shot.

 

[GWH]

yes I see your a law giver then. And a works for salvation type.

Enough said

I see you are unfamiliar with my view regarding God's requirement for salvation. For the full explanation please read the Kerygma thread or the corresponding Lesson about the Christian Creed on our website, but here is an introduction:

A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.

The reply of Paul and Silas was this: “Believe in the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 16:31) This is GRFS in a nutshell. Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to seek salvation (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19). Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith (per Rom. 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16 & 5:8-19).

Hope now you have learned not to say enough said until enough is said.