Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth into righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made into salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Yup, that's the point - gotta be saved/born again for that to occur

what rogerg says:

"gotta be saved/born again for that to occur"


what God says:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth into righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made into salvation. Romans 10:9-10

thou shalt be saved = born again
.

 

[BillyBob]

Fwers always speak of a [works based salvation] covered with a thin veneer of grace. For example, they might say:

Do you see it? Do you now understand the only way to be clothed in Christ, and worthy of entering heaven? It has nothing to do with your personal worthiness. It has everything to do with the perfection which covers your soul the moment you trust Jesus as your Savior.”

Sounds pretty good doesn’t it? In fact it sounds just as good as the meal that has been laced with cyanide tastes just before it kills you!

They proclaim correctly that "the only way to be clothed in Christ, the only way one can be worthy of entering Heaven has nothing to do with a man’s personal worthiness, but has everything to do with the perfection that covers your soul". And then comes the kicker, the words that change their message from grace to works. “…the moment YOU trust Jesus…”

**MDB** with modifications

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I understand your wanting to set the record straight, truly I do, but sometimes it is really not worth it, I think there are many here who are fully aware and that is all that matters just my view on it.

yeah I understand. it was interesting to me that my submitting the results of my query equals me "falsely accusing".
.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Isn’t exercising our MFW on CC fun?

So easy to tell when i've shown you lot up for the trolls and fools many of you are, collectively spitting out your dummies on my post! cv5 might even promise..... erm,....... threaten to put me on ignore again!

Oh well, re-posting that comment below and will look in shortly for a giggle:

"We're close in thinking for sure but surely if one really thinks about it, how can we have free will when we're corrupted and fallen? Adam and Eve most certainly had free will before their fall but after it happened, they/we were increasingly corrupted by sin.

We can't make/enact pure choices and are dominated all through our lives by a powerful elite who call the important shots. It's ridiculous to say we have free will currently, however, many of us on this forum are likely to experience its restoration or something even better, in the near future."

 

[lrs68]

Fwers always speak of a [works based salvation] covered with a thin veneer of grace. For example, they might say:

Do you see it? Do you now understand the only way to be clothed in Christ, and worthy of entering heaven? It has nothing to do with your personal worthiness. It has everything to do with the perfection which covers your soul the moment you trust Jesus as your Savior.”

Sounds pretty good doesn’t it? In fact it sounds just as good as the meal that has been laced with cyanide tastes just before it kills you!

They proclaim correctly that "the only way to be clothed in Christ, the only way one can be worthy of entering Heaven has nothing to do with a man’s personal worthiness, but has everything to do with the perfection that covers your soul". And then comes the kicker, the words that change their message from grace to works. “…the moment YOU trust Jesus…”

**MDB** with modifications

Are you saying that it's possible to not trust Jesus, live in same sex relationships, live like the devil, be evil and cruel to everyone and still go to Heaven?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

They proclaim correctly that "the only way to be clothed in Christ, the only way one can be worthy of entering Heaven has nothing to do with a man’s personal worthiness, but has everything to do with the perfection that covers your soul". And then comes the kicker, the words that change their message from grace to works. “…the moment YOU trust Jesus…”

This is so pathetic. People so phobic about works that they think trusting God destroys grace.

 

[Magenta]

HeIsHere would you care to clarify?

Were you satisfied with her evasive non-answer?

 

[HeIsHere]

Fwers always speak of a [works based salvation] covered with a thin veneer of grace. For example, they might say:

Do you see it? Do you now understand the only way to be clothed in Christ, and worthy of entering heaven? It has nothing to do with your personal worthiness. It has everything to do with the perfection which covers your soul the moment you trust Jesus as your Savior.”

Sounds pretty good doesn’t it? In fact it sounds just as good as the meal that has been laced with cyanide tastes just before it kills you!

They proclaim correctly that "the only way to be clothed in Christ, the only way one can be worthy of entering Heaven has nothing to do with a man’s personal worthiness, but has everything to do with the perfection that covers your soul". And then comes the kicker, the words that change their message from grace to works. “…the moment YOU trust Jesus…”

**MDB** with modifications

Trusting in, is NOT a work if one follows the biblical definition of "works" ..... now that is a novel idea.

Try again.

 

[HeIsHere]

This is so pathetic. People so phobic about works that they think trusting God destroys grace.

I think you are seeing it, that is what this thread has essentially been about.

 

[lrs68]

This is so pathetic. People so phobic about works that they think trusting God destroys grace.

When I read examples from the Reformed it's almost as if they could be saying if I were to help someone in need I would be removing the possibility of God's Grace being fulfilled.

Where I see WORKS as God working His Grace towards someone by using another person to do His Will.

 

[BillyBob]

Trusting in, is NOT a work if one follows the biblical definition of "works" ..... now that is a novel idea.

Try again.

It is when you make it the cause rather than the effect!

 

[HeIsHere]

It is when you make it the cause rather than the effect!

It is not a cause it is what is necessary and set by God and it is who we have faith in, Jesus is the object of our faith.

If it is the condition set by God it is by His sovereign choice.

Words matter.

"Without faith, it is impossible to please [God]; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6 KJV).

GOD REQUIRED FAITH WHEN SPEAKING TO MEN THROUGH CHRIST.

(1) his effort to secure faith in sufferers before he healed them; and

(2) his reproaches of his disciples, again, and again saying to them, "O ye of little faith!" How is it that ye have no faith. Impress that this is God's necessary condition still, and for us. Whence proceed sterility and unfruitfulness in the knowledge of Christ, and inefficiency to good works, and the life of righteousness? The answer is - We have not faith, even as a grain of mustard seed." - R.T.
Bible Hub
R. Tuck

 

[Magenta]

I think you are seeing it, that is what this thread has essentially been about.

Nah, it has been about you and yours claiming man can do what Scripture says he cannot.

But your blindness, double standards, and dishonesty won't allow you to admit it.

Not to mention...!!! The fact that free will is not taught in the Bible. Yeah, there is that, too.

 

[rogerg]

Fwers always speak of a [works based salvation] covered with a thin veneer of grace. For example, they might say:

Do you see it? Do you now understand the only way to be clothed in Christ, and worthy of entering heaven? It has nothing to do with your personal worthiness. It has everything to do with the perfection which covers your soul the moment you trust Jesus as your Savior.”

Sounds pretty good doesn’t it? In fact it sounds just as good as the meal that has been laced with cyanide tastes just before it kills you!

They proclaim correctly that "the only way to be clothed in Christ, the only way one can be worthy of entering Heaven has nothing to do with a man’s personal worthiness, but has everything to do with the perfection that covers your soul". And then comes the kicker, the words that change their message from grace to works. “…the moment YOU trust Jesus…”

**MDB** with modifications

Outstanding, post BilllyBob. From their perspective, salvation is always dependent upon some action they must take that is necessary to obtain it. And by that, they make clear their trust was actually placed in themselves and not in Jesus.

 

[lrs68]

Outstanding, post BilllyBob. From their perspective, salvation is always dependent upon some action they must take that is necessary to obtain it. And by that, they make clear their trust was actually placed in themselves and not in Jesus.

Now that you are saved, do you do WORKS?

 

[rogerg]

Now that you are saved, do you do WORKS?

Yes. And?

 

[HeIsHere]

Outstanding, post BilllyBob. From their perspective, salvation is always dependent upon some action they must take that is necessary to obtain it. And by that, they make clear their trust was actually placed in themselves and not in Jesus.

So a child is trusting themselves when they trust in their parent to take care of them, yes that makes sense.

 

[cv5]

Yes, there is. To believe through grace (below) they first had to have God's grace. It is by God's grace that one becomes saved. So, they were saved first, then, from that, they believed

Saved first then believed huh?
Via the "pre-birth sovereign lottery" technique? Or some other means?

Cuz it sure ain't the gospel message and believing technique according to you.

 

[rogerg]

So a child is trusting themselves when they trust in their parent to take care of them, yes that makes sense.

You're not trusting in Christ. If you were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, your trust is in yourself via your belief
you became/become saved by your action. Your trust is in you. You can't see that?

 

[lrs68]

Yes. And?

Just asking because I have only read replies talking about WORKS [{(after)}] God leading them to Salvation.