Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Yep, Paul explained Election by using those who were Elected. The ancient Hebrew Jew.

So...your point is!? God's election still saves Abraham's spiritual descendants to this day. God was always the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Nowhere in the OT or the NT will you ever read that He was the God of Ishmael or Esau. God is only the God of the living -- not the dead!

 

[Cameron143]

Salvation is regeneration being given.

No. Regeneration is not salvation; however, it is necessary for salvation.

 

[Mem]

Jacob "didn't achieve" diddly squat in Rom 9!

Are we arguing about agreeing here? Just for kix?

His will or efforts are not in view in that chapter!

The object of his faith was always his view.

You don't think Paul new the OT better than all of us put together!?

Where'd you get that idea?

Yet, he said what he said in that chapter in spite of the OT scriptures in order to explain the doctrine of election.

Paul referred the OT scriptures in spite of the OT scriptures? Really, you sound confused...

.....

 

[sawdust]

Of course you believe in limited atonement! You believe the atonement is limited qualitatively, since Christ's death only potentially saves people. His atonement merely makes salvation possible since there is zero efficacy in his Cross work.

No, the Cross paid for all sin, unlimited atonement, which is why even unbelievers come out of the grave. Sin isn't the big bogey man, rejection of God is the problem. There is no cure and no-one can pay the price because it is permanent.

The Cross is about taking the full punishment for sin. We are not made alive by His death but by his life. His death eliminated the barrier of sin for all so that whosoever believes can have eternal life. Maybe they will believe, maybe they won't. The promise of God for life is on us believing Him, not on Christ's death. If men were saved on the basis of the Cross alone then there would be universal salvation and no need for the Lord to require we believe.

 

[Rufus]

I was telling you they were not rescued from slavery.
Only rescued from one form of slavery.

They just were moved by God to a new location, away from the Egyptian slave masters.
But they remained slaves!

Being a slave is a mental attitude.
The account of the Jews wandering 40 years in the wilderness is designed to teach us that principle.

Then your belief contradicts what how God himself characterized his own rescue misssion. What you're implying here is that God did a half-baked job of redeeming his people -- if that much! Yet, the Exodus is characterized as work!

 

[Cameron143]

Showed you but you think being saved from death is not being saved so what hope is there.

If you are saved from your sins why do you still sin? Will you die again?

No. I believe spiritual life is necessary for belief.

 

[Magenta]

The Gospel is the power unto salvation.

The Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. FWers love butchering that verse to make it say what they want.

 

[Rufus]

Read Rom 9 someday. You won't find any mention of Jacob accomplishing anything! That's all I'm saying. It's extremely poor hermeneutics to read the OT back into the New because in the scheme of progessive revelation it's the New that fully reveals and clarifies the Old!

 

[Cameron143]

Believe WHAT?

That they are a sinner?
Or, believe in the Deity of the Trinity?

The natural man can be sure he is a sinner.
He does not need regeneration to know that.

On the other hand?
The teaching of the Deity of the Trinity is foolishness to him.

The natural man can not understand Bible teachings designed to feed those born again with.

The natural man can know that a man named Jesus was crucified.

The Gospel involves facts that are not beyond the scope of the natural man.

Believe unto salvation.
Again, how many people who are dead in trespasses and sins believe?

 

[Mem]

Read Rom 9 someday. You won't find any mention of Jacob accomplishing anything! That's all I'm saying. It's extremely poor hermeneutics to read the OT back into the New because in the scheme of progessive revelation it's the New that fully reveals and clarifies the Old!

I didn't claim that Jacob accomplished anything as I used the word "obtained," as in when one obtains a gift.

 

[Cameron143]

Those who don't prefer darkness when God shines His light by means of grace. Not everyone loves the dark. God's grace leads the lovers of light to the truth who is Christ. Like a moth to the flame.

John 3:20-21
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Nope. The answer is 0. There are no people who are spiritually dead who believe.

 

[Rufus]

No, the Cross paid for all sin, unlimited atonement, which is why even unbelievers come out of the grave. Sin isn't the big bogey man, rejection of God is the problem. There is no cure and no-one can pay the price because it is permanent.

The Cross is about taking the full punishment for sin. We are not made alive by His death but by his life. His death eliminated the barrier of sin for all so that whosoever believes can have eternal life. Maybe they will believe, maybe they won't. The promise of God for life is on us believing Him, not on Christ's death. If men were saved on the basis of the Cross alone then there would be universal salvation and no need for the Lord to require we believe.

Not true! Christ's work on the Cross effectively (i.e. qualitatively) saves ALL of Abraham's spiritual descendants who are God's elect. So, yes, you limit Christ's atoning work in the qualitative sense.

 

[sawdust]

No. Regeneration is not salvation; however, it is necessary for salvation.

I don't think I would like to live in a world where being made alive isn't being saved from death.

You have still yet to explain how one can be alive and dead in their sin simultaneously even if only for a nanosecond?

 

[Cameron143]

Showed you but you think being saved from death is not being saved so what hope is there.

If you are saved from your sins why do you still sin? Will you die again?

Saved from the penalty of sin, being saved from the power of sin, and eventually saved from the presence of sin.

 

[Rufus]

I didn't claim that Jacob accomplished anything as I used the word "obtained," as in when one obtains a gift.

Then he didn't "obtain" anything in Rom 9. This has been my point all along.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't think I would like to live in a world where being made alive isn't being saved from death.

You have still yet to explain how one can be alive and dead in their sin simultaneously even if only for a nanosecond?

I have many times. Grace and peace.

 

[Mem]

Then he didn't "obtain" anything in Rom 9. This has been my point all along.

Ahh, I see, I no speaky Calvinese.

 

[sawdust]

No. I believe spiritual life is necessary for belief.

I realise that Cameron but that doesn't answer the question. You say you are made alive and will never die again but refuse to see that as salvation from death?

I'm sorry but God promised life to those who believe, not those who are regenerated. The Gospel is easy enough for a sinner to understand, it doesn't take being spiritual to comprehend right from wrong and the judgement that follows.

 

[Rufus]

You don't get it. One is saved upon belief. Regeneration isn't salvation. It is the impartation of life. You equate the two. I don't.

The FWers have a really tough time dealing with metaphors. Regeneration's parallel with physical life is impregnation which leads to birth, and birth leads to consciousness and awareness. And so it is with spiritual life. Spiritual life has a definite goal: Faith and Repentance!

 

[sawdust]

Not true! Christ's work on the Cross effectively (i.e. qualitatively) saves ALL of Abraham's spiritual descendants who are God's elect. So, yes, you limit Christ's atoning work in the qualitative sense.

No I don't, the Cross isn't about saving men it is about paying the price on their behalf. One must believe to be saved.