Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

But it takes MUCH, MUCH more than mere external evidence. It takes the force of all the precious, unilateral New Covenant promises that God fulfills internally in his covenant people's hearts. Israel, historically, was inundated with external "evidence" of God's efficacious power/grace, but how did that work out for that apostate nation?

The bottom line is you believe in the EVIDENCE. Because you believe in the EVIDENCE you continue to trust in God. You made a choice and the EVIDENCE is what you continue to trust and believe.

 

[Magenta]

And here I thought I believed in Santa because my parents told me about him and I implicitly trusted them...Matthew 18:3.

Truly. But some of these free willers insist they are convinced of something and then need to decide whether to believe it or not.

They must live in an alternate universe, where being convinced of something means something other than what it does.

 

[lrs68]

And here I thought I believed in Santa because my parents told me about him and I implicitly trusted them...Matthew 18:3.

Did you ever see a Santa in person as a child?
Yes!
That is what sold you, the proof of experience is what you believed in.

 

[Cameron143]

Did you ever see a Santa in person as a child?
Yes!
That is what sold you, the proof of experience is what you believed in.

Nope. I believed what my parents said. Should have read the verse I gave. Seeing a person dressed as Santa may have reinforced my belief, but it wasn't the cause.

 

[Rufus]

Mostly angry Reformed types banging on my doors trying desperately to sell me religious snake oil.

Actually, we're trying desperately to rescue you from the controlling power of the devil and the doctrines of his demons.

 

[BillyBob]

That is what God's Justice does.
Justice that was satisfied on the Cross.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, ​

who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.' 1 Timothy 4:10​

​

We could not save ourselves from our sins.
That is Justice... Not grace!



Now, what part does God's grace partake in us when we are being drawn or presented the Gospel?

Do you even understand grace?

Grace is supernatural power given by God to make us able to function when we are totally unable to do something.

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9​

read that? Grace is power from God. Enabling power to overcome our depravity while grace sustains us in its power..

All men are saved from our sins by God's Justice.

Grace enabled us to be able to make a right decision concerning God.
But grace did not make us make our decision.
It simple enabled us to be able to choose.

It may confound you. But? Not everyone chooses to believe.
God's grace leaves them to be without excuse when they reject.
For they can not say, "my depravity made me reject you, God!"

There is no Justice when one had no choice......
.

Only some are saved, [God's elect].
You are correct in saying that God's justice was satisfied at the cross. Christ paid the penalty for the sins of [God's elect]. Not a single drop of blood was shed for anyone outside this group.
In the Bible, the term "sovereign" describes God's absolute and unlimited power, authority, and rightful rule over the entire universe, as He alone can do all things according to His good pleasure and divine plan. And, His plan was to save a particular people to to spend eternity with Him.
That is precisely why they are placed into the care of Christ, His son. The perfect Sheppard who will leave none behind.
I know that this is a tough pill for FWers to swallow, that God would have mercy on some and not others, but that is what scripture teaches in Rom 9:15.
God leaves nothing to chance. Why would he leave that choice in the hands of a fallen creature who is dead in sin and has absolutely no desire for the things of God?
Please don't come back with your lame understanding that God foreknew that we would choose Him. That is absolutely not the reason for His mercy! He renews [the elect], giving them all that is needed to be saved. That is why all glory belongs to Him and Him alone.

NOW THAT IS GRACE! Mercy given to people who are undeserving!

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 18 v 3-6 “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Please don't come back with your lame understanding that God foreknew that we would choose Him.

Makes it sound like they believe God is a respecter of persons when they do that.

 

[Rufus]

The bottom line is you believe in the EVIDENCE. Because you believe in the EVIDENCE you continue to trust in God. You made a choice and the EVIDENCE is what you continue to trust and believe.

No, I did not believe "in the EVIDENCE". I believed because of God's power working within me. He made me willing in the day of HIS power -- not my power! Get up to speed on the unilateral New Covenant promises someday.

 

[cv5]

But it takes MUCH, MUCH more than mere external evidence.

For you it supposedly did. It took a kidnapping and lobotomy, dragging you kicking and screaming to a shotgun wedding to marry Someone you otherwise would have found repulsive.

For me it took honest assessment of massive evidence and witnesses, then taking Christ at His word about my need to seize upon the offer provided in His completed work, and then saying "I do" to His marriage proposal, thereby entering into the covenant.

BTW, I do NOT see kidnappings, lobotomies and shotgun weddings well represented in the assembly of the heroes of faith of Hebrews 11. Or in the spectacle of the consummation of the Mosaic covenant. Or anywhere else in Scripture for that matter.

 

[Magenta]

No, I did not believe "in the EVIDENCE". I believed because of God's power working within me. He made me willing
in the day of HIS power -- not my power! Get up to speed on the unilateral New Covenant promises someday.

God's power working in us is empirical evidence..

People have mistakenly assumed I believe in God because I believe the Bible but it is actually the other way around.

 

[NightTwister]

I only read they accepted the Gift that God offered to them. That they were not kidnapped, forced like victims to accept, but rejoiced to accept the Precious Gift of Salvation from God Who gave it to them.

No one here believes anyone was kidnapped or forced, but you must keep bearing false witness to make your argument plausible.

 

[cv5]

Actually, we're trying desperately to rescue you from the controlling power of the devil and the doctrines of his demons.

Satan is always lying when he says that.

 

[Rufus]

Matthew 18 v 3-6 “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven..."Makes it sound like they believe God is a respecter of persons when they do that.

BINGO! Since God supposedly loves all unconditionally, and sent Jesus to atone for the sins of all, and is an infinitely huge DEI advocate, then how could He not possibly save all in the triune Name of Fairness, Justice and Equality? Anything less than universal salvation would certainly indicate divine favoritism.

 

[Genez]

FTFY!

Fixed it for yourself...

 

[Magenta]

No one here believes anyone was kidnapped or forced, but you must keep bearing false witness to make your argument plausible.

There are those here (FWers) who say such things about God were He to act unilaterally.

In their theology, God needs their permission... otherwise, according to them, He is an unjust tyrannical monster...

Kidnapping people against their "free will." They seem to love blaspheming God.

 

[Cameron143]

No, I did not believe "in the EVIDENCE". I believed because of God's power working within me. He made me willing in the day of HIS power -- not my power! Get up to speed on the unilateral New Covenant promises someday.

Not to mention that faith doesn't walk by sight.

 

[Genez]

Only some are saved, [God's elect].
You are correct in saying that God's justice was satisfied at the cross. Christ paid the penalty for the sins of [God's elect]. Not a single drop of blood was shed for anyone outside this group.
In the Bible, the term "sovereign" describes God's absolute and unlimited power, authority, and rightful rule over the entire universe, as He alone can do all things according to His good pleasure and divine plan. And, His plan was to save a particular people to to spend eternity with Him.
That is precisely why they are placed into the care of Christ, His son. The perfect Sheppard who will leave none behind.
I know that this is a tough pill for FWers to swallow, that God would have mercy on some and not others, but that is what scripture teaches in Rom 9:15.
God leaves nothing to chance. Why would he leave that choice in the hands of a fallen creature who is dead in sin and has absolutely no desire for the things of God?
Please don't come back with your lame understanding that God foreknew that we would choose Him. That is absolutely not the reason for His mercy! He renews [the elect], giving them all that is needed to be saved. That is why all glory belongs to Him and Him alone.

NOW THAT IS GRACE! Mercy given to people who are undeserving!

It's hopeless....

See ya around.

 

[Cameron143]

Did I ask you?

That's grace. You don't have to deserve it or ask.

 

[Magenta]

Not to mention that faith doesn't walk by sight.

2 Corinthians 5 verse 7 ~ We walk by faith, not by sight.

 

[cv5]

No one here believes anyone was kidnapped or forced, but you must keep bearing false witness to make your argument plausible.

Actually, yes, you do.
In fact you chant this mantra incessantly.

Saved by force and fraud (definitely NOT by volitional faith/believing). This is the message and these are the salvific principles proffered by the determinists.