Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

They seem that way to you because they expose truths you are uncomfortable with which doesn't fit with your philosophy.

No, rather they are that way because of your DELIBERATE CHOICE to dig a labyrinthic determinist quasi-philosophical dungeon predicated upon a singular false premise (the "natural man" myth) that you surely know in your heart has failed the test of Scripture.

Sorry fake sorry.

 

[Cameron143]

No, rather they are that way because of your DELIBERATE CHOICE to dig a labyrinthic determinist quasi-philosophical dungeon predicated upon a singular false premise (the "natural man" myth) that you surely know in your heart has failed the test of Scripture.

Sorry fake sorry.

You can't even accept what the scripture actually says. The natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. You say he can. The carnal man is not subject to the law of God nor can he be. You say he can and is. If you aren't going to accept scripture, you can believe anything.

 

[cv5]

You can't even accept what the scripture actually says. The natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. You say he can. The carnal man is not subject to the law of God nor can he be. You say he can and is. If you aren't going to accept scripture, you can believe anything.

False. The text definitely does not support this premise.
In fact the text supports the contrary.

DOES NOT RECIEVE - an act of personal volition. The natural man turns down God's offer by an act of his own free will.

Strong's Greek: 1209. δέχομαι (dechomai) -- To receive, accept, welcome

1209 déxomai – properly, to receive in a welcoming (receptive) way. 1209 (déxomai) is used of people welcoming God (His offers), like receiving and sharing in His salvation (1 Thes 2:13) and thoughts (Eph 6:17).

1209/dexomai ("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

 

[cv5]

You can't even accept what the scripture actually says. The natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. You say he can. The carnal man is not subject to the law of God nor can he be. You say he can and is. If you aren't going to accept scripture, you can believe anything.

BTW, we free-willers are.....free.

Jhn 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[Cameron143]

False. The text definitely does not support this premise.
In fact the text supports the contrary.

DOES NOT RECIEVE - an act of personal volition. The natural man turns down God's offer by an act of his own free will.

Strong's Greek: 1209. δέχομαι (dechomai) -- To receive, accept, welcome

1209 déxomai – properly, to receive in a welcoming (receptive) way. 1209 (déxomai) is used of people welcoming God (His offers), like receiving and sharing in His salvation (1 Thes 2:13) and thoughts (Eph 6:17).

1209/dexomai ("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

View attachment 279376

Notice it doesn't say he will not, but that he cannot. It's not a matter of the will, but of ability.

 

[lrs68]

I'll take the result of professional bible translators over the amateur lrs68 in determining which English word should be used.

I personally didn't choose that word it was the word that was chosen by God. I am just copying and pasting it. So you are not rejecting anything I have done but as typical Reformed you are rejecting the true meaning that God Himself chose. Not a shocker to me at all.

 

[BillyBob]

You are not seeking answers, you are seeking to ensnare the unwary and ignorant.

Is that how you now describe yourself?

 

[Cameron143]

BTW, we free-willers are.....free.

Jhn 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Did you get free through your own endeavor or did Christ set you free? If Christ alone can set one free, did He force this freedom upon you?

 

[cv5]

Notice it doesn't say he will not, but that he cannot. It's not a matter of the will, but of ability.

False. Neither the term nor the concept of "cannot" exists in the passage.

 

[Cameron143]

False. Neither the term nor the concept of "cannot" exists in the passage.

It literally says...neither can he. That phrase speaks to the issue of ability. No wonder you err. You don't know what words mean.

 

[HeIsHere]

If, as you say, God loves this world, then why would He insist on destroying it, replacing with new heavens and new earth?
Given that His "love gift to the world " was manifested by His "vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice", then by that,
He couldn't destroy it because His judgment and anger against it would have been satiated by His sacrificing for it.
And yet we are told in the verses below in no uncertain terms, that God will destroy it.

[2Pe 3:7, 10-13 NIV]
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. ...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

He destroyed the old system and yes He was insistent upon it for sure.

 

[HeIsHere]

It literally says...neither can he. That phrase speaks to the issue of ability. No wonder you err. You don't know what words mean.

Well sir, you err and gravely so.

The text does NOT preclude the natural man being taught the Good NEWS!!

As I have stated many times >>>>> CONTEXT!

The comparison here is not natural man with the spiritual man ... the contrast is human wisdom and divine revelation.

This is what Paul is stating....those who rely on human wisdom instead of the spiritual truths brought by the inspired apostles will see the cross as foolish and perish as a result.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Debate over!
This verse does not support inability .. it is out.

Next.

 

[rogerg]

He destroyed the old system and yes He was insistent upon it for sure.

He will destroy these heavens and earth and all who then remain in them and completely replace with the new.
It is yet to happen - in the future.

[2Pe 3:10 KJV] 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[cv5]

Notice it doesn't say he will not, but that he cannot. It's not a matter of the will, but of ability.

Wrong. He DOES NOT RECIEVE the OFFER of the gifting of the Spirit whereby understanding is possible, this by an act of volition.
As a consequence of this initial/precursory willful rejection, THEN he cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

As I have posted many times, God's OFFER, if refused/not received, RESULTS in blindness/judgement/darkness.
This is a second order EFFECT, it is a "reactionary judgement" contingent upon the DECISION of the intended recipient.
God extends His hand with the OFFER, the intended beneficiary RECEIVETH NOT the gift (offered in good faith), God reacts accordingly with justified judgement.

And this phenomenon is reproduced and codified literally HUNDREDS of times in Scripture.
Yet you fail to see it hundreds of times? Uncanny and bizarre.

 

[HeIsHere]

You can't even accept what the scripture actually says. The natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God. You say he can. The carnal man is not subject to the law of God nor can he be. You say he can and is. If you aren't going to accept scripture, you can believe anything.

You know ironic is not a big enough word anymore, let us go with MEGA -ironic!!

Now read this thoughtfully, prayerfully, every night and you will soon forget all these false doctrines you have accepted into your mind.

John 3:16 is enough to settle this matter.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God loves the world, not just part of it. The “world” never refers to the elect.

 

[rogerg]

Wrong. He DOES NOT RECIEVE the OFFER of the gifting of the Spirit whereby understanding is possible, this by an act of volition.
As a consequence of this initial/precursory willful rejection, THEN he cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

As I have posted many times, God's OFFER, if refused/not received, RESULTS in blindness/judgement/darkness.
This is a second order EFFECT, it is a "reactionary judgement" contingent upon the DECISION of the intended recipient.
God extends His hand with the OFFER, the intended beneficiary RECEIVETH NOT the gift (offered in good faith), God reacts accordingly with justified judgement.

And this phenomenon is reproduced and codified literally HUNDREDS of times in Scripture.
Yet you fail to see it hundreds of times? Uncanny and bizarre.

Wrong. The Spirit must first indwell someone for them to be able to accept the things of the Spirit. IOW, for anyone to gain spiritual discernment, they first must have become saved, by which, they are given the Spirit, otherwise, without the Sprit, they cannot be spiritual man but instead are natural man.

[1Co 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

[cv5]

The comparison here is not natural man with the spiritual man ... the contrast is human wisdom and divine revelation.

So obvious.....

[1Co 2:4 KJV]
And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

[1Co 2:5 KJV]
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[1Co 2:6 KJV]
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

[1Co 2:7 KJV]
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
But the natural man (the wisdom of men cohort) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[HeIsHere]

Wrong. He DOES NOT RECIEVE the OFFER of the gifting of the Spirit whereby understanding is possible, this by an act of volition.
As a consequence of this initial/precursory willful rejection, THEN he cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

As I have posted many times, God's OFFER, if refused/not received, RESULTS in blindness/judgement/darkness.
This is a second order EFFECT, it is a "reactionary judgement" contingent upon the DECISION of the intended recipient.
God extends His hand with the OFFER, the intended beneficiary RECEIVETH NOT the gift (offered in good faith), God reacts accordingly with justified judgement.

And this phenomenon is reproduced and codified literally HUNDREDS of times in Scripture.
Yet you fail to see it hundreds of times? Uncanny and bizarre.

They hate context, it is so true, they demand a verse remain isolated.

If you wrote an email or letter to a group a people about a very weighty topic that needs a lot of explanation, comparison and contrasting, how could it ever be right/honest to take one line out of the totality of your message and make it the sum total of your
the information you were trying to convey.

I find this practice the most disturbing and dishonest, but we can see would be dead without this practice.

 

[HeIsHere]

So obvious.....

[1Co 2:4 KJV]
And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

[1Co 2:5 KJV]
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[1Co 2:6 KJV]
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

[1Co 2:7 KJV]
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
But the natural man (the wisdom of men cohort) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Thank you!!!

This has been deal with so many times, on other threads as well, I know this is one of the tactics to circle back and try again. they have tenacity I will grant them that.

 

[cv5]

Wrong. The Spirit must first indwell someone for them to be able to accept the things of the Spirit. IOW, for anyone to gain spiritual discernment, they first must have become saved, by which, they are given the Spirit, otherwise, without the Sprit, they cannot be spiritual man but instead are natural man.

[1Co 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Try and up your game will you? That NIV translation is fit for the rubbish heap. The text does not support that word order its an appallingly poor effort.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

G1209 - dechomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3756 - ou - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

Strong's Greek: 1209. δέχομαι (dechomai) -- To receive, accept, welcome

1209 déxomai – properly, to receive in a welcoming (receptive) way. 1209 (déxomai) is used of people welcoming God (His offers), like receiving and sharing in His salvation (1 Thes 2:13) and thoughts (Eph 6:17).

1209/dexomai ("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]