Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

All descendants of Adam are born in the state shown in Eph 2:1-3.





have you considered the fact that God indicates mankind can know good?

If and when God reaches out, a person can believe God and if that person believes, do you believe God hardens that person's heart.

If and when God reaches out, the one who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness is the one whose heart can be hardened ... it's up to God whether He will harden or whether He will not harden. I do not believe God will harden the heart of natural man who does believe what God says in Scripture. I do believe there are verses in Scripture that do not require in-depth spiritual understanding to believe ... honour your father and mother is one that comes to mind.

I do believe that to be born again, a person must believe the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.

Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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Having the knowledge of Good is one thing, and if all you had was the knowledge of Good, you would think you could do no wrong.

The thing is Adam and eve did not have the knowledge of evil before they disobeyed God they disobeyed out of there own nature.

The same nature that exist in us.

Some passages say there sin was imputed to us, well in a way it was, but the underlying fact was it was there nature that is imputed in us.

The judgement made in God's sovereign plan before the foundations of the world was that we should be born under judgment which was plain to see in the garden

That would be a difficult concept to accept for some, since they just want to tie that belief to Calvinists

But not only did Adam and eve Disobey by there own nature.

They now had the knowledge of all evil to go with it.

Is there any chance God placed a stone in there hearts for any other reason than believing that stone was just a curse.

Now it couldn't have been a physical stone couldn't it.

It could have been a stone that blocks the entrance to life but also offers some hedge of protection.

I mean a physical stone in your heart would kill you.

So maybe just maybe that stone has more than one purpose.

But here's where those thoughts would and could just pass a person by.

Maybe not,
there may even be a thought about well God was known to put a flaming sword protecting the way to life.

Well he certainly carried on to protect Adam and eve


So just maybe just maybe his sovereign plan is not that bad after all when it comes to heart of stone

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Just yes or no will do.

you asked:

Please answer the question: are there any scriptures that are not the things of the Spirit.
Also, is there any spiritual truth that is not included in the things of the Spirit?

What verse (or verses) in Scripture are you referring to when you ask about "the things of the Spirit"?
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[reneweddaybyday]

@Jordon ... edit to Post 12,799

Those who are not born again can believe some truth contained in the truth of Scripture ... some folks who are not born again can believe in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ... thou shalt not steal ... thou shalt not murder ... etc., etc.

just wanted to clarify that because I do believe there is Scripture which natural man cannot understand ... as well as truth a believer who is still feeing on the milk of the Word does not yet understand ... however, I do not believe the gospel is beyond the capability of natural man to understand ... so it again comes down to believe and receive the blessing ... or suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence.
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[reneweddaybyday]

@Rufus ... edit to Post 12,796

Those who are not born again can believe some truth contained in the truth of Scripture ... some folks who are not born again can believe in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth ... thou shalt not steal ... thou shalt not murder ... etc., etc.

just wanted to clarify that because I do believe there is Scripture which natural man cannot understand ... as well as truth a believer who is still feeing on the milk of the Word does not yet understand ... however, I do not believe the gospel is beyond the capability of natural man to understand ... so it again comes down to believe and receive the blessing ... or suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence.
.

 

[Jordon]

@Jordon ... edit to Post 12,799




just wanted to clarify that because I do believe there is Scripture which natural man cannot understand ... as well as truth a believer who is still feeing on the milk of the Word does not yet understand ... however, I do not believe the gospel is beyond the capability of natural man to understand ... so it again comes down to believe and receive the blessing ... or suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence.
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the truth is mankind was capable of believing anything,

The knowledge of gaining all evil was inevitable anyway.

So lets give all mankind knowledge of all evil in advance but let's put a stone in-between the knowledge of Good and evil so he has a chance.

Hey not so bad.

But guess what he passed more judgement with his flood

That judgement call must have came from a previous judgment call.

Hey but listen He's God I mean surely only one of his jewels ,stones , in all those hearts could make that judgment call so quickly.

Where they all evil who perished in the flood.

Maybe not, the lord is also known to sacrifice his own for better good, and who make that judgment call.

Well that's God to.

What ever he decides to do with his life we just have to accept.

After all his life will return to him

 

[HeIsHere]

Of course you can. You only "ask questions" that you and you alone intend on answering with pre-packaged determinist dogma.

These are not "honest questions", they are "set ups". A frame-up job fit for a con-man. You are not seeking answers, you are seeking to ensnare the unwary and ignorant.

Yes, their mission field is Christians and they have certain tactics they use.
One tactic is to cause doubt with loaded questions.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Having the knowledge of Good is one thing, and if all you had was the knowledge of Good, you would think you could do no wrong.

the only reason I pointed out the knowledge of good is because you and others are quite knowledgeable concerning the knowledge of evil to the point where God having stated that mankind can know good is completely and irrevocably swept under the carpet and ignored ... then come the claims that natural man is unable to believe one scintilla of Scripture under any circumstance ... even when God reaches out to him or her ...

The thing is Adam and eve did not have the knowledge of evil before they disobeyed God they disobeyed out of there own nature.

is it your claim that Adam and Eve were not Spirit filled before they sinned?

The same nature that exist in us.

that was the result of the fall ... not the cause of it.

Some passages say there sin was imputed to us, well in a way it was, but the underlying fact was it was there nature that is imputed in us.

Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:27) ... then Adam and Eve sinned ... Adam's descendants were begotten in the likeness and image of Adam (Gen 5:3) ... all succeeding generations were/are/will be begotten in the image and likeness of their earthly parents.

The judgement made in God's sovereign plan before the foundations of the world was that we should be born under judgment which was plain to see in the garden

chapter and verse supporting this statement ... that Adam and Eve were "born under judgment", please.

That would be a difficult concept to accept for some, since they just want to tie that belief to Calvinists

But not only did Adam and eve Disobey by there own nature.

They now had the knowledge of all evil to go with it.

what are you talking about when you claim "Adam and eve Disobey by there own nature"?

Is there any chance God placed a stone in there hearts for any other reason than believing that stone was just a curse.

when you say "there hearts" are you talking about Adam and Eve? if so, you will need to provide chapter and verse which states Adam and Eve were created with stony hearts.

Now it couldn't have been a physical stone couldn't it.

It could have been a stone that blocks the entrance to life but also offers some hedge of protection.

I mean a physical stone in your heart would kill you.

So maybe just maybe that stone has more than one purpose.

But here's where those thoughts would and could just pass a person by.

Maybe not,
there may even be a thought about well God was known to put a flaming sword protecting the way to life.

God placed cherubims at the east of the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Well he certainly carried on to protect Adam and eve

So just maybe just maybe his sovereign plan is not that bad after all when it comes to heart of stone

You will have to provide Scripture which indicates Adam and Eve had a heart of stone before the fall.
.

 

[HeIsHere]

John 3:16 is enough to settle this matter.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God loves the world, not just part of it. The “world” never refers to the elect.

God’s love gift to the world is the vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice of His beloved Son. “... the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”
All men can believe in Christ and be saved. The gospel is a “whosoever” call.
(Way of Life Literature)

 

[Magenta]

All men can believe in Christ and be saved. The gospel is a “whosoever” call.

Not if they are not given a new heart, raised to new life, and given to Jesus by the Father.

You ignore so many Scripture verses. It seems to be an ingrained habit with you.

Just ignore them and pretend they don't exist.

For instance, the world cannot receive the spirit of truth. And Romans 8:7.

Both speak to innate inability. You just pretend all men are able and need nothing.

 

[NightTwister]

Thankfully the Holy Ghost gave Ezekiel the exact Hebrew word and meaning to use so we are able to know what that Verse spiritually means.

Sadly, some think that Verse could mean people are walking around with a calcium and Lyme mineral build up that can be as hard as solid diamonds pumping blood through someone's veins.

I'll take the result of professional bible translators over the amateur lrs68 in determining which English word should be used.

 

[Magenta]

I'll take the result of professional bible translators over the amateur lrs68 in determining which English word should be used.

The Hebrew roots element should not be ignored, either. There are a few deeply entrenched in that...

 

[Magenta]

He needs to own up and take responsibility for his actions

Not likely to happen. That is the guy who would rather blaspheme God than admit he was wrong.

 

[Mem]

Yes, their mission field is Christians and they have certain tactics they use.
One tactic is to cause doubt with loaded questions.

Using fear tactics only propagates the force by which all mankind has continued in bondage. Scripture declares that "if Christ sets you free, then you are free indeed" and, indeed, this is exactly why Jesus had come to do the will of His Father. All are freed to choose, if only to make one choice of that which is needed, life in Him, and that choice secures a permanent freedom.

 

[rogerg]

God loves the world, not just part of it. The “world” never refers to the elect.

God’s love gift to the world is the vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice of His beloved Son

If, as you say, God loves this world, then why would He insist on destroying it, replacing with new heavens and new earth?
Given that His "love gift to the world " was manifested by His "vicarious, substitutionary sacrifice", then by that,
He couldn't destroy it because His judgment and anger against it would have been satiated by His sacrificing for it.
And yet we are told in the verses below in no uncertain terms, that God will destroy it.

[2Pe 3:7, 10-13 NIV]
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. ...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[Jordon]

the only reason I pointed out the knowledge of good is because you and others are quite knowledgeable concerning the knowledge of evil to the point where God having stated that mankind can know good is completely and irrevocably swept under the carpet and ignored ... then come the claims that natural man is unable to believe one scintilla of Scripture under any circumstance ... even when God reaches out to him or her ...





is it your claim that Adam and Eve were not Spirit filled before they sinned?





that was the result of the fall ... not the cause of it.





Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:27) ... then Adam and Eve sinned ... Adam's descendants were begotten in the likeness and image of Adam (Gen 5:3) ... all succeeding generations were/are/will be begotten in the image and likeness of their earthly parents.





chapter and verse supporting this statement ... that Adam and Eve were "born under judgment", please.





what are you talking about when you claim "Adam and eve Disobey by there own nature"?





when you say "there hearts" are you talking about Adam and Eve? if so, you will need to provide chapter and verse which states Adam and Eve were created with stony hearts.





God placed cherubims at the east of the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.





You will have to provide Scripture which indicates Adam and Eve had a heart of stone before the fall.
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God said if you eat of that tree you will surely die.

That's when they suffered a death. I don't think I meant they suffered a spiritual death before that, or a heart of stone.

I meant Gods sovereign plan as to what to do with mankind would have been in place before that happened as to what do with mankind.

I believe a saved person has the life and spirit in there hearts as found in Corinthians.

So the garden may be talking about the soulish life in the heart of man and not necessarily the holy spirit

But was it the holy spirit they had in there are hearts or was it speaking of there own spirit. Which would be there soul.

Would it be there whole soul that was destroyed.

I can't see it can you.

I can see a severance death, a a part of the soul being cut of from God.

I can't see it being the holy spirit as death can not occur to the holy spirit.

I can't see there whole soul was destroyed as that would mean they couldn't be saved.

So the only logical explanation could be a part of there soul had suffered a severance from God.

Which was then indicated in how they no longer had there innocence and hid from God.

Which really is a big thing a soul no longer having innocence.

So was it there innocence that died in the garden.

There is much to learn and seek God.

But the point why they suffered we suffered.

What they no longer had we no longer had.

What they where given we was given.

 

[studier]

all Scripture is God breathed (2 Tim 3:16).

Some Scripture is understood (even by natural man) without having to research the Hebrew or the Greek or to whom God was speaking or the culture of the time, etc., etc.

Words are to be understood in light of the verse within which they are placed, verses of Scripture are to be understood in light of the context within which they are placed, the context is to be understood in light of the book within which the context is set, immediate context is to be understood in light of remoter context.

There is more to Scripture than ripping a verse from the context and holding it up as a proof text to support dogma. We are to bring dogma to Scripture and where dogma is in error, let go of the error.

Some Scripture is understood without having to dig deeper ... the gospel ... the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures ... the Lord Jesus Christ was raised from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures ...

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Belief of the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God to those who believe, is the first step. Then we are to feed on the milk of the Word until we are spiritually mature to the point where we can feed on the meat of the Word.

Instead of holding up 1 Cor 2:14 as a proof text that no Scripture can be understood ... at the very least read from 1 Cor 2:6 where Paul transitions from the milk of the Word to the meat of the Word. We've gone over the context many times ... you know it and I know it. you reject what I believe and I do not consider the gospel to be in view in 1 Cor 2:14. I believe the gospel is spoken of in the verses prior to 1 Cor 2:6.

And you and your friends can deny this truth, but just because I believe that is what Scripture reveals does not mean I "reject Scripture" ... or that I "believe foolishness" ... or that I am "rewriting 1 Cor 2:14 because I NEED it to fit any per-programmed way of thinking".

I actually believe it is those who fold the gospel and the milk of the Word into 1 Cor 2:14 are the ones who "rewrite Scripture" because they "NEED it to fit their per-programmed way of thinking".


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Good post. FWIW, your sincerity toward the Word comes through in most every post, as does your ability to read and interpret in context.

Thanks for your work.

 

[Jordon]

the only reason I pointed out the knowledge of good is because you and others are quite knowledgeable concerning the knowledge of evil to the point where God having stated that mankind can know good is completely and irrevocably swept under the carpet and ignored ... then come the claims that natural man is unable to believe one scintilla of Scripture under any circumstance ... even when God reaches out to him or her ...





is it your claim that Adam and Eve were not Spirit filled before they sinned?





that was the result of the fall ... not the cause of it.





Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:27) ... then Adam and Eve sinned ... Adam's descendants were begotten in the likeness and image of Adam (Gen 5:3) ... all succeeding generations were/are/will be begotten in the image and likeness of their earthly parents.





chapter and verse supporting this statement ... that Adam and Eve were "born under judgment", please.





what are you talking about when you claim "Adam and eve Disobey by there own nature"?





when you say "there hearts" are you talking about Adam and Eve? if so, you will need to provide chapter and verse which states Adam and Eve were created with stony hearts.





God placed cherubims at the east of the Garden of Eden:

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.





You will have to provide Scripture which indicates Adam and Eve had a heart of stone before the fall.
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you seem to be suggesting that the Knowledge of Good they had was sufficient.

Is that what you think

Are we talking about the knowledge of Good they gained from the tree of knowledge.

You must be.

And it looks like your saying that knowledge of Good they had was sufficient enough for them...

But enough for them to do what exactly.

I really don't understand are you implying the knowledge of Good and evil was enough for adam and eve to discern the spiritual things of heaven.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course you can. You only "ask questions" that you and you alone intend on answering with pre-packaged determinist dogma.

These are not "honest questions", they are "set ups". A frame-up job fit for a con-man. You are not seeking answers, you are seeking to ensnare the unwary and ignorant.

They seem that way to you because they expose truths you are uncomfortable with which doesn't fit with your philosophy.

 

[Cameron143]

you asked:




What verse (or verses) in Scripture are you referring to when you ask about "the things of the Spirit"?
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I was responding to 2 different posts. More deception. And when a verse is speaking about those who are perishing, it is referring to those who perishing.

And there is no scripture not included in the things of the Spirit referenced in 1 Corinthians 2:14. So the verse is not simply referring to the meat of the word, but includes the milk of the word and the gospel. In other words, even if you believe receiving the word is volitional, the natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God even if he received them.

 

[Jordon]

the only reason I pointed out the knowledge of good is because you and others are quite knowledgeable concerning the knowledge of evil to the point where God having stated that mankind can know good is completely and irrevocably swept under the carpet and ignored ... then come the claims that natural man is unable to believe one scintilla of Scripture under any circumstance ... even when God reaches out to him or her ...





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You know it's would easier if you just really said what bothering you.

Are you sure it's not your own thinking that's making these decisions.

I'm not seeing the bad intentions you mention.

Is it your faith to believe children are born innocent and under no judgment untill the age of accountability that's really upsetting you.


Judgment doesn't just mean a bad thing.

What is it that's upsetting you or us it multiple thing that has been said to you over the years here.

Having knowledge is one thing but knowing what to do with it is another.

First thing Adam and eve had some knowledge of good before gaining all knowledge of Good.

He wasn't able to make the right choice.

When he gained all knowledge of Good do you think it's wise to then use that as idea he could then understand

You know I think your cutting yourself up way to much what the evil people can do, and focusing to much in it..

It's also what people through foolish actions are capable of doing, that have huge consequences for generations to come.

Honestly I've got better things to do than just concentrate on what evil people can do, I would much rather talk about what good you can do.