Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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Oh and just to help you out buddy, what the Pharisees believed was that they were BORN SAVED. Of course they never preached this to non-jew proselytes because it was secret hidden inside "truth" that only the elites knew. What the DID do is....lie to them. And then make them prisoners of them to bogus works doctrine. Yep. Prisoners. Show up to synagogue and get to work loser was their attitude.
They weren't saving ANYBODY....and they knew it. And Jesus knew it. And Jesus knew that THEY knew it.
"it (FAITH) results from the choice of man"
This ridiculous utterance coming from the lips of the champion of you Calvinists? Highly amusing.
That is insight that I welcome, cherish, and will remember from this point forward.
It actually does in Ephesians 2:8 as demonstrated to you before. Romans 10:17 also reveals where faith comes from. No mention of man's choice.
So Hunt believes that determinism is Neo-Phariseeism elitism kicked up another notch?
So that salvation is unobtainable for any non-elite non-elect loser by any means including the gospel message?
Hhmmmm I think he is onto something.
They are just blaspheming God again. It seems to be second nature to some of these people.
Not possible without God's leading, grace and love, but, uh, you deny these things.
You are so deluded you tell people to go preach in cemeteries and then you want us to believe you understand what we believe.
Not only that, you want us to believe the lies you tell, like saying you don't conflate spiritual death with physical death.
Your very words betray you. And you want us to believe you are defending God's character when you have repeatedly slandered Him.
Like many free willers you contradict and outright deny many Scriptural verses.
But then you tun around and want people who do not know what is really going on in here to believe you are presenting the truth.
"it (FAITH) results from the choice of man"
This is @Cameron143 's latest eureka moment. Yep. He actually said it.
I wasn't interpreting the parable; I was only make some parallels between it and God's salvation. I mean after all...the Good Samaritan did save the half-dead guy, right?
From the ilk of Adam Clarke:
“Acts 13:48: As many as were ordained to eternal life believed – This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained; or predestinated by God’s decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning. Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life. But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word τεταγμενος mean? The verb ταττω or τασσω signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned Acts 13:43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, Acts 13:45. Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it. Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed. Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here: those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd.”
I think Mr. Clark did a pretty good job here. How about you?
And there are some technical things in the language he didn't even touch on.
Jesus confirms my assessment of course.
Only because I first confirmed His.
[Mat 23:15 NKJV]
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
I have not time at the moment but I will post the Greek analysis going into the clauses which refutes this.
If faith were a gift then it be plainly stated.
It is not.
John 3:14-15 (see also John 1:29; Numbers 21:6-9; 1st John 2:2; 2nd Corinthians 5:14-15)
“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.”
Not whoever is "gifted" belief.