Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

It doesn't matter if the jews thought of themselves as part of the world just what God thinks and it clearly says what he thought of the world he loved the world enough to do what he did.

Besides that the jews were wrong in their thinking after all how many times did Jesus have to correct them when he was in his ministry?

Yeah, it does matter because that truth is taught throughout the OT. We can begin with just this verse wherein Balaam spoke under and by God's inspiration:

Num 23:8-9
8 "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed?
And how shall I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 For from the top of the rocks I see him,
And from the hills I behold him;
There! A people dwelling alone,
Not reckoning itself among the nations.
NKJV

And,

Lev 20:24-26
24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations.

Are you still with me? Stay awake. There's more.

Deut 4:19-20
19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars - all the heavenly array - do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
NIV

Deut 32:8-9
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
ESV

Josh 23:6-13
6 "Be very strong; be careful to obey all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left. 7 Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them. 8 But you are to hold fast to the LORD your God, as you have until now.

9 "The LORD has driven out before you great and powerful nations; to this day no one has been able to withstand you. 10 One of you routs a thousand, because the LORD your God fights for you, just as he promised. 11 So be very careful to love the LORD your God.

12 "But if you turn away and ally yourselves with the survivors of these nations that remain among you and if you intermarry with them and associate with them, 13 then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you.
NIV

God drove out His enemies and his people's enemies from the Land.

And one more for good measure:

Ezra 9:1-2
9:1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness."
NIV

And these passages are just the tip of the iceberg if you're still not convinced. These passages account for why terms like "all" or "world" are frequently used in a limited (qualified) sense in the NT.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 3 v 9B-18~ Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. As it is written, “There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The venom of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery lie in their wake, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 v 5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

There you go. Good job! Paul defines ‘dead in sins’ as separated from God, walking in disobedience, not lying corpse-like, unable to do anything. Corpses don’t walk or disobey—and Paul never says they can’t respond when confronted by God’s Word and Spirit.

Of course, they can respond once raised from the dead.

 

[studier]

Didn't we already go through all of this? No one dies spiritually by degrees. They either are dead, or they are not, period -
death is all-encompassing. If someone is dead, then only God can make them alive, and He does so only for His elect.

Paul himself explains ‘dead in sins’ as separation expressed in walking in disobedience, not corpse-like incapacity. Salvation is God’s gift in Christ, received through faith. Reading eternal election into the text goes beyond what Paul says

 

[Magenta]

There you go. Good job! Paul defines ‘dead in sins’ as separated from God, walking in disobedience, not lying corpse-like, unable to do anything. Corpses don’t walk or disobey—and Paul never says they can’t respond when confronted by God’s Word and Spirit.

Paul does say the natural man cannot receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God. But you disagree with Paul.

You disagree with Paul so the unregenerated person can receive and understand and choose to believe.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[Genez]

Show me from scripture where it is stated that God works in an individual to enable them to choose please.

You ask for hours of in depth teaching that you have been neglecting to seek.

And, since it can not be answered in one post?
Say there is no answer, when one can not be given on your terms.

 

[Blain]

Yeah, it does matter because that truth is taught throughout the OT. We can begin with just this verse wherein Balaam spoke under and by God's inspiration:

Num 23:8-9
8 "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed?
And how shall I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9 For from the top of the rocks I see him,
And from the hills I behold him;
There! A people dwelling alone,
Not reckoning itself among the nations.
NKJV

And,

Lev 20:24-26
24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations.

Are you still with me? Stay awake. There's more.

Deut 4:19-20
19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars - all the heavenly array - do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
NIV

Deut 32:8-9
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
ESV

Josh 23:6-13
6 "Be very strong; be careful to obey all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left. 7 Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them. 8 But you are to hold fast to the LORD your God, as you have until now.

9 "The LORD has driven out before you great and powerful nations; to this day no one has been able to withstand you. 10 One of you routs a thousand, because the LORD your God fights for you, just as he promised. 11 So be very careful to love the LORD your God.

12 "But if you turn away and ally yourselves with the survivors of these nations that remain among you and if you intermarry with them and associate with them, 13 then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you.
NIV

God drove out His enemies and his people's enemies from the Land.

And one more for good measure:

Ezra 9:1-2
9:1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness."
NIV

And these passages are just the tip of the iceberg if you're still not convinced. These passages account for why terms like "all" or "world" are frequently used in a limited (qualified) sense in the NT.

That is all well and good but it still doesn't disregard the world in the verse I provided. trying to make a word mean something it doesn't is not a valid argument for a disucssion such as this. it says what it says and means what it means

 

[studier]

Sounds to me that the passage that you mentioned shows that God is again having mercy on a people who have wandered from Him and profaned His name. He says: v22 “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.”
But even though they did this, He has mercy on them by gathering them to their own land.
He washes them and makes them clean, telling them that He will be their God and they will be His people. That is His plan!
Once this has been done he tells them: v31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
Much of this is done to glorify His name throughout the land, for He proclaims:
v36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

Yes, Ezekiel 36 shows God restoring Israel for His name’s sake. But nothing in the passage says He gives new hearts to unbelievers so they can believe.

 

[Cameron143]

You ask for hours of in depth teaching that you have been neglecting to seek.

And, since it can not be answered in one post?
Say there is no answer, when one can not be given on your terms.

I agree that there is no clear scripture which teaches this.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yes sir the oracle, and yes sir come kind of enabling. does that sound silly or stupid to you ? It feels like it does from yourself

Explicitly what happens in that enabling is open to question but I do believe I shared that with you in a different thread already.

Thanks for your reply.

At the moment I'm more concerned about the religious harassment that is taking place here.

To many people are harassing one person here.

I do hope your not like that to.

All tho i sense you also have a hard time understanding people's faith. That's generally where religious harassment starts.

Not that I'm saying that's what's happening here m, that's what generally happens.

A better thought would be to say thanks for sharing your faith rather than go into disagreement straight away.

In sorry but I don't do religious arguments if that's what your looking for,

Obviously i apologise if your not.

Naw not looking to argue thought we were in agreement . Just discussing Bible stuff in a public bible discussion forum . Been here for a couple years there’s always an argument somewhere going on here brother I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single day without arguments and some really pretty bitter ones actually take place .

i never have liked it either but it is a public open discussion forum so I concluded it seems like it’s going to occur because it’s a microcosm of the world and it’s pretty much everywhere we look on the world

But we can still discuss the Bible here peacefully for our own part those ignore buttons work wonders when harassment is involved it’s like the person no longer exists here when it’s used so it ends any harassment by them pretty much instantly

 

[Magenta]

Of course, they can respond once raised from the dead.

We have been told to go and preach in cemeteries by one who denied conflating spiritual death with physical death.

 

[Rufus]

One other thing about Luke 1:

Luke 1:50-51
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
NIV

Just as God gives His grace only to the humble; likewise He extends mercy to only God-fearers. The God-hating world isn't the recipient of God's mercy or the recipient of the New Covenant promises He made with his covenant people.

 

[studier]

You don't read too swell, do you? Christ came to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant, which means he only came to save Abraham's spiritual descendants. He did not come to save the entire world in the distributive sense but only his covenant people. And for your info, God never promised Abraham that he would become the father of each and every person in the world w/o exception.

Luke 1 speaks of salvation’s dawn in Christ. Abraham’s true descendants are those who choose to believe (Rom 4; Gal 3)—God’s people are defined by faith, not by monergistic determinism. Per Scripture, it’s chose to believe > salvation."

 

[Rufus]

You ask for hours of in depth [mental gymnastics type] teaching that you have been neglecting to seek.

And, since it can not be answered in one post?
Say there is no answer, when one can not be given on your terms.

FTFY!

Plus I'm praising God that he has spared Cam from that kind of teaching.

 

[studier]

So, you do believe in all of CV5's heretical claptrap. Good to know that you think Adam was some kind of superhero of the Christian Faith. You have fallen so far into the deep, dark pit that you have, evidently, lost all sight of daylight. You truly are a son of the night.

Ad hominems and more Projection aside, the point stands: faith precedes salvation, and God’s people are those who choose to believe (Rom 4; Gal 3).

 

[Rufus]

Luke 1 speaks of salvation’s dawn in Christ. Abraham’s true descendants are those who choose to believe (Rom 4; Gal 3)—God’s people are defined by faith, not by monergistic determinism. Per Scripture, it’s chose to believe > salvation."

Abraham's "true descendants" are the ones God has foreknown and given saving grace to before the foundation of the world, which is the Primary Cause of their faith. If God had not decreed in eternity anyone's salvation, no one would be saved.

 

[Genez]

I agree that there is no clear scripture which teaches this.

There is a correlation of various Scripture that needs to be done!

I will try again.
Here is one Pastor Teacher that I know can perform such a task.

Exegetical Teaching

.

 

[Genez]

FTFY!

Plus I'm praising God that he has spared Cam from that kind of teaching.

Rufus.... Why do you hate the Holy Spirit so much?

 

[Rufus]

Ad hominems and more Projection aside, the point stands: faith precedes salvation, and God’s people are those who choose to believe (Rom 4; Gal 3).

In your world there is no downside for anyone who dies in Adam. How could there be? He was such a virtuous, God-fearing, pious believer -- to anyone who believes CV5's absurd theories.