Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

But God's people were always saved in God's eyes in eternity since they only has He ever known.

But it's refreshing to see you finally concede that "His people" doesn't consist of the world in the distributive sense. IOW, this Lukian passage is not teaching that God came into the world to save each and person w/o exception. He came to save only his covenant people -- to whom, "coincidentally" the New Covenant promises were made. This Lukian passage addresses God's PURPOSE for sending his Son into the world.

Luke 1 announces mercy and salvation’s dawn in Christ. As everywhere in Scripture, salvation comes by faith, freely exercised. Belief > salvation. God’s people are those who freely believe.

 

[Rufus]

Why does God need Faith when He is God?

Don't you know that faith also comes through being IN Christ? Did not the Son always trust in his Father? Could Jesus have been perfectly obedient to the Father apart from faith in and love for his Father? Could Jesus have pleased his Father apart from trusting in Him? Don't you know that Jesus is the Perfect Model for the Christian life?

 

[Rufus]

Luke 1 announces mercy and salvation’s dawn in Christ. As everywhere in Scripture, salvation comes by faith, freely exercised. Belief > salvation. God’s people are those who freely believe.

You don't read too swell, do you? Christ came to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant, which means he only came to save Abraham's spiritual descendants. He did not come to save the entire world in the distributive sense but only his covenant people. And for your info, God never promised Abraham that he would become the father of each and every person in the world w/o exception.

 

[studier]

Nor is there any "wiggle room" for salvation outside of God's chosen, covenant people. Christ came to fulfill the oath his Father made to Abraham -- and to all of Abraham's spiritual descendants (Lk 1:72)

Luke is clear that Abraham’s true descendants are defined by faith, not bloodline or a hidden decree. Forgiveness proclaimed (Luke1:77) and light offered (Luke1:79) become salvation when received by faith. Belief > salvation.

 

[Magenta]

Luke is clear that Abraham’s true descendants are defined by faith, not bloodline or a hidden decree. Forgiveness proclaimed (Luke1:77) and light offered (Luke1:79) become salvation when received by faith. Belief > salvation.

Yeah, that is what a spiritual descendant is as Rufus said.

 

[Rufus]

I think what I said in response to this:

Which was:

So, you do believe in all of CV5's heretical claptrap. Good to know that you think Adam was some kind of superhero of the Christian Faith. You have fallen so far into the deep, dark pit that you have, evidently, lost all sight of daylight. You truly are a son of the night.

 

[Blain]

Define "world"! Do you understand that the Jews never considered themselves to be part of the "world"? They never biblically thought of themselves as being just another nation among many others in the world.

It doesn't matter if the jews thought of themselves as part of the world just what God thinks and it clearly says what he thought of the world he loved the world enough to do what he did.

Besides that the jews were wrong in their thinking after all how many times did Jesus have to correct them when he was in his ministry?

 

[Magenta]

Sounds to me that the passage that you mentioned shows that God is again having mercy on a people who have wandered from Him and profaned His name. He says: v22 “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.”
But even though they did this, He has mercy on them by gathering them to their own land.
He washes them and makes them clean, telling them that He will be their God and they will be His people. That is His plan!
Once this has been done he tells them: v31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
Much of this is done to glorify His name throughout the land, for He proclaims:
v36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

From Romans 6 v 19-21 You used to offer your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness when you were slaves to sin. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death.

 

[studier]

Saved through/from/because of, Christ's faith, not theirs. He alone satisfied the requirements of the Father for salvation. He is the Savior

And fallen man's choosing to believe this Truth is their required response to God. It's part of the Gospel and part of what the Spirit convicts/convinces about.

 

[Rufus]

The order remains God’s gracious giving of His power in the Gospel, combined with the convicting ministry of His Spirit—so that unbelievers have all they need to choose either to believe or to reject Him.

But God never intended to "give his power in the Gospel" to any other than his covenant people whom He predestined to save. The proud world is not the recipient of God's grace. Christ came to save HIS people -- not the people OF this world!

 

[Magenta]

Sounds like you keep yourself busy.

Perhaps he needs to start putting out the Pelagian heretics' fires that he helps set... Quite the arsonist, he is.

 

[Jordon]

“some kind of enabling ?.”

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

The gospel is what god has done to save us to enable us to quicken us and change our minds it’s preached in all the world and anyone who believes will be saved but anyone who rejects it will be damned

the enabling is already there hearing it and belief into application is the key

often we stop ourselves from even hearing it so we can receive faith that it offers

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The word of God was sent out to all nations into the end of the world promising them if they believe they shall be saved the gospel is the power of God to save souls ot lacks nothing and needs nothing more but a believer

yes sir the oracle, and yes sir come kind of enabling. does that sound silly or stupid to you ? It feels like it does from yourself

Explicitly what happens in that enabling is open to question but I do believe I shared that with you in a different thread already.

Thanks for your reply.

At the moment I'm more concerned about the religious harassment that is taking place here.

To many people are harassing one person here.

I do hope your not like that to.

All tho i sense you also have a hard time understanding people's faith. That's generally where religious harassment starts.

Not that I'm saying that's what's happening here m, that's what generally happens.

A better thought would be to say thanks for sharing your faith rather than go into disagreement straight away.

In sorry but I don't do religious arguments if that's what your looking for,

Obviously i apologise if your not.

 

[Magenta]

And fallen man's choosing to believe this Truth is their required response to God. It's part of the Gospel and part of what the Spirit convicts/convinces about.

The natural/unregenerated man is incapable of receiving, and understanding the spiritual things of God. He is
opposed to them as a God hater, and is also INCAPABLE of submitting to and obeying God. Scripture says so.
Oh, what's that, you say? You do not believe what Scripture says? Really! Tell us something we do not know...

 

[Magenta]

And fallen man's choosing to believe this Truth is their required response to God. It's part of the Gospel and part of what the Spirit convicts/convinces about.

Required? What? I thought that was the point where you said they then had a choice to accept or reject.

The order remains God’s gracious giving of His power in the Gospel, combined with the convicting ministry of His Spirit—so that unbelievers have all they need to choose either to believe or to reject Him.

On the other hand Scripture says those given to Jesus by God will come to Him.

None of this namby-pamby, now that I have convinced you, you can choose to reject the Truth.

Jesus drawing all men to Himself - enables men to make the choice whether to Receive Him or reject Him, which God has given men the freedom to choose either way.

Not being pulled into philosophical abstractions about free will. Biblically, whenever the gospel is proclaimed and the Spirit convicts, fallen man retains the God-given faculty to choose to believe in Jesus Christ or to reject Him.

 

[studier]

You are correct. Faith does magnify God because it evidences God at work in the individual. But faith generated by individuals apart from the work of God magnifies man. When individuals leave God out of any part of the salvation process, they magnify themselves in that regard

Herein lies your misunderstanding or misrepresentation or both. By deleting your last 2 sentences the misunderstanding/misrepresentation is mostly gone.

Then if we clarify God at work in the individual, we get to the root of the disagreement.

God at work for you = new heart > [choose to] believe.

God at work for us is His Word/Gospel, His co-workers, His Spirit convincing, etc. We see choose to believe > new heart.

I don't think the non-determinist misrepresents the determinist process.

I continually see the determinist misrepresenting the non-determinist process. You've done it again just above. I lined it out.

 

[Magenta]

I don't think the non-determinist misrepresents the determinist process.

That's because you are deceived, and seek to deceive. You misrepresent often. Both the beiefs of others, and your own self.

Ah, the joy you had entertaining and keeping Rufus busy for months while trash talking him.

People see through your dishonesty, you know.

 

[cv5]

And fallen man's choosing to believe this Truth is their required response to God. It's part of the Gospel and part of what the Spirit convicts/convinces about.

Agree. All of this is baked in the plan of salvation cake. Like it or not.

Furthermore, God has ALWAYS maintained "diplomatic channels" to fallen man throughout the ages so that the opportunity to believe never fails.

Pro tip: don't stone the ambassadors that He sends. And don't scorn the king who sends them.

And to the super-determinists I say: for pitys sake don't tamper with, distort or make forgeries of the message that the King gave the ambassadors.

 

[Cameron143]

Herein lies your misunderstanding or misrepresentation or both. By deleting your last 2 sentences the misunderstanding/misrepresentation is mostly gone.

Then if we clarify God at work in the individual, we get to the root of the disagreement.

God at work for you = new heart > [choose to] believe.

God at work for us is His Word/Gospel, His co-workers, His Spirit convincing, etc. We see choose to believe > new heart.

I don't think the non-determinist misrepresents the determinist process.

I continually see the determinist misrepresenting the non-determinist process. You've done it again just above. I lined it out.

Show me from scripture where it is stated that God works in an individual to enable them to choose please.

 

[Genez]

I think of it this way:
Satan is a criminal arsonist, gleefully and perpetually lighting heresy fires.

The Saints are the firefighters, quenching this conflagration.

But, we are also to construct something to replace what was burned down with something that will remain standing.

 

[studier]

Then how do they walk? In obedience? The physical actions of man reflect their spiritual state - whether they be spiritually dead or alive. If they walk in disobedience, it is because they are spiritually dead with their disobedience as the result. Though spiritually dead, yet not physically dead, they walk in disobedience - disobedience being a manifestation of spiritual death, that comes from someone who is spiritually dead.

There you go. Good job! Paul defines ‘dead in sins’ as separated from God, walking in disobedience, not lying corpse-like, unable to do anything. Corpses don’t walk or disobey—and Paul never says they can’t respond when confronted by God’s Word and Spirit.