Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

Because like you say where only confirming what is written in scripture

have you considered Scripture which tells us man can know good and evil?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil ...

Everyone who has posted in this thread acknowledges that it is God Who reaches out to mankind ... and God reaches out through the Scripture He has given us to read ... through sending faithful believers to speak His Word to us.

When God reaches out to us, mankind has only two responses ...

1) believe the Word; or
2) suppress the truth in unrighteousness (don't believe the Word)

Since God has stated that mankind can know good (Gen 3:22) ... why is there an insistence that mankind cannot comprehend when God reaches out? ... why is there no understanding from some that natural man does comprehend and, at times, natural man believes what he or she is told?

But according to some, the only response available from mankind is rejection.

I believe natural man can believe what God tells them ... I do not believe all reject out of hand ... Abraham is an example ... Rahab is an example ... Naaman is an example ...

There are too many examples in Scripture which indicate that natural man can respond positively to God and this truth is rejected out of hand by some (@Magenta, @Rufus, @BillyBob for sure ... not sure about you).
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God knew, God knew, God knew. He knew because he decreed the Fall

what was God's Will [decree] when He told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

-- just like He knew that Pharaoh would not let the ancient Hebrews leave Egypt because God decreed to harden the king's heart.

The hardening of pharaoh's heart was a response to pharaoh rejecting God's Word ... what takes place in the hardening of the heart is fully explained in Romans 1.

Rom 1:18 — the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God's Word is spoken to them. (The words hold the truth in unrighteousness mean that the truth is restrained or suppressed in unrighteouosness.)

Rom 1:19-21 — God reveals Himself in creation and people turn from Him and are not thankful. They become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart becomes darkened.

Rom 1:22-24 — because the heart is darkened, they change the glory of God into an image (idolatry).

They are given up to uncleannesss through the lusts of their own hearts.

Rom 1:24-26 — because they are given up to uncleanness, they dishonor their bodies. The truth of God is changed into a lie and creation is worshipped more than the Creator.

They are given up to vile affections and the natural is changed into that which is against nature.

Rom 1:27-28 — because they are given up to vile affections, they burn in their lust and work that which is unseemly which results in receiving the adequate compensation for their error.

They are given over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:29-32 — actions of those with a reprobate mind. They know the judgment of God and continue in their foolishness and also have pleasure in those who do the same.

People are not born with a reprobate mind. They are allowed to step further and further from God and at certain points, God releases them to their foolishness. it is a downward spiral from their foolish heart was darkened (Rom 1:21) to God gave them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It does not happen overnight. It is a progression over time.

At any point, a person can turn to God. God forgives those who are truly repentant. We have this lifetime to turn to God. Look at the malefactor who hung on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).
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[reneweddaybyday]

God is the One Who established His plan of redemption in eternity past ... we are just living through that plan and we either believe what God wrote in Scripture (or Scripture a faithful believer preaches) or we don't ... whatever decision we make determines where we will spend eternity future.

Excuse me, but the above statement is what I objected to.
If God established His plan of redemption in eternity past, then [it will not fail] and [cannot be changed by anything man does]. If His plan includes us, He will certainly make it to happen.

If you would read the next part of the post ...

there are only two choices we have when Scripture is presented to us ... believe ... or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

​

Those who believe when Scripture is presented receive the blessing according to God's eternal purpose.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence.

Absolutely no assurance in what you have stated. Do you not agree?

The only way there could be "absolutely no assurance in what [ I ] have stated" is if it were possible for God to lie.
.

 

[cv5]

Here we are back at God commanding things of man while we are told certain men -which is probably most- are INCAPABLE of obeying, a FACT you repeatedly refuse to deal with for obvious reasons.
?

That is some pretty thin gruel lady.

[Jer 4:4 KJV]
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

"OK, Lord, we WILL make right choices" said Z and E.

[Luk 1:5 KJV]
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.

[Luk 1:6 KJV]
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[Magenta]

Those who seem to value maintaining the confusion seem to me to be like those who value functioning in the darkness.

Sounds like you, actually.

 

[Magenta]

They read in the "gifted" faith even though it is not there.

1 Corinthians 4 verse 7b; John 3 verse 27; Romans 9 verses 15-16 ~ What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

All three of these biblical facts prove conclusively that God does not bestow saving grace upon all mankind in the distributive sense, which is the big lie of FWers!

under that definition of "FWers" ... no one who has posted in this thread meets the criteria.

What has been stated ...

God so loved the world [all descendants of Adam], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

The words "whosoever believeth" do not negate or diminish God's capacity to love the whole world ... all descendants of Adam. The words "whosoever believeth" define those who "should not perish, but have everlasting life".

The descendants of Adam who do not believe will perish:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

.

 

[cv5]

There are so many things wrong with that tradition that it's a tremendous amount of work to deal with it. Also, there are several Scriptures that have enough ambiguity that it's not always possible to prove one tradition over another from that one or few verses. Thus, the never-ending battles.

I tapped off one verse that was under discussion earlier here, found some of such sufficient ambiguities, and tracked it through some other Scriptures to see what I might find for a pivot point - something that seems to show why some aspect of this determinism is wrong. I ended that session for now in Gal3:26-27.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:26-27 NKJ)

These verses are explaining the prior verse that speaks of the new era of grace in Christ.

We become sons of God through Faith in Christ Jesus. This Faith is articular and thus there is some sense of specificity here. It's obviously Faith or Belief in Jesus Christ, but it can also very easily be making clear that it's "your Faith/Belief in Jesus Christ." IOW, this can be very specifically the action of the believer.

3:26 We know that God moves first, so we include that here. God provides the Gospel of His Son > men believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ > God makes believers His sons.

3:27 is explaining this and elaborating it. The direct inference is Gospel > Faith > Baptized INTO Christ > Put on Christ - God's Sons.

Not only do we see how we are put into - entered into - Christ by [the Spirit's] baptism, but if we are not stuck in a deterministic, monergistic mindset, we can see the action > response interaction between God and men.

But the key IMO is the last clause "have put on Christ."

You've done a lot of work on words like "receive" which are active on the part of the person. We can see in this last clause in the English that it also has an active sense. The new believer is clearly said to be clothing himself with Christ.

This is a middle voice verb. The new believer is clothing himself and it has an effect on him.

The point? As I've said before, we are way too hung up on trying to protect God and against a misunderstood concept of "works of law". Paul has no problem showing how this interaction with God is responsive on the part of men. In fact, he can essentially say that this entire process just outlined can be summarized as the new believer clothing himself with Christ.

IMO this destroys monergism.

But for me, just like I really don't care if we speak of human volition apart from the baggage-ridden philosophical phrase "free will", nor do I care for the word "synergism." I don't see it used in Greek prior to salvation. We do not work with God on equal or common grounds in coming to Christ. We respond to grace just as He has designed and implemented. If He wants to give us some credit, and it seems according to Paul that He does, then we take it and say Thank You.

We become sons of God through Faith in Christ Jesus. This Faith is articular and thus there is some sense of specificity here. It's obviously Faith or Belief in Jesus Christ, but it can also very easily be making clear that it's "your Faith/Belief in Jesus Christ." IOW, this can be very specifically the action of the believer.

Faith is the rudder by which we reach the destination. We are to man the wheel and plot the course that has been provided.

Anything else means shipwreck.

 

[Magenta]

James 1 v 17-18, Numbers 23 v 19c, and from Philippians 3 v 21 ~ Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. Does He promise and not fulfill? He has the power to subject all things to Himself.

 

[cv5]

All three of these biblical facts prove conclusively that God does not bestow saving grace upon all mankind in the distributive sense, which is the big lie of FWers!

Well sir, if I were you, I would get this doctrine of yours sorted out. ASAP.

[2Jo 1:9 KJV]
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We are told how to live a life that is pleasing to God. Yet many times we fail, because we are fallen creatures. But, when we are told to choose life rather than death, FWers tell us that [God would not ask us to do something that we are unable to do].
The sad fact is that we ARE UNABLE to do this without being brought to newness of life!
And that, my friend, is a work of God.

The true fact is that we ARE ABLE to choose life.

What is the work of God is the life He bestows upon those who "choose life".
.

 

[Jordon]

To answer you is to take what you say personally?
Is that what you meant?

If that's the case?

I think "projection" is at work here.

Projection, the mental process by which people attribute to others what is in their own minds.

I can't stay to to long but is clear, you and others are making this all about calvinists and there beliefs and depravity being one of those beliefs, or as you quoted out of absolutely no where total depravity,

I've already read how you and others condemn calvinists, so if you can't admit you take these things personal then you perhaps you really need a lesson in how you talk to people sir.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

have you considered Scripture which tells us man can know good and evil?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil ...

Everyone who has posted in this thread acknowledges that it is God Who reaches out to mankind ... and God reaches out through the Scripture He has given us to read ... through sending faithful believers to speak His Word to us.

When God reaches out to us, mankind has only two responses ...

1) believe the Word; or
2) suppress the truth in unrighteousness (don't believe the Word)

Since God has stated that mankind can know good (Gen 3:22) ... why is there an insistence that mankind cannot comprehend when God reaches out? ... why is there no understanding from some that natural man does comprehend and, at times, natural man believes what he or she is told?

But according to some, the only response available from mankind is rejection.

I believe natural man can believe what God tells them ... I do not believe all reject out of hand ... Abraham is an example ... Rahab is an example ... Naaman is an example ...

There are too many examples in Scripture which indicate that natural man can respond positively to God and this truth is rejected out of hand by some (@Magenta, @Rufus, @BillyBob for sure ... not sure about you).
.

Amen

“Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-19‬ ‭NIV‬‬

as far back as cain the firstborn man on earth there’s absolutely nothing to say cain didint hear and understand what god told him

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you,

but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Cain choosing his own evil idea instead has nothing to do with him not being able to hear and grasp what god told him .

at his is a perfect example of why we don’t want to try to invent entire doctrines from sentences in Paul’s letters like this one

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


you can see how it just goes haywire if we do that we shouldn’t take that sentance and then try to use it to disprove obvious facts that are in front of us such as all men are capable of hearing god or understanding words because he said them

….unless he intentionally makes them blind and dead to his word and unable to hear like he did isreal after their breaking of his covenant

“And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, and the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

air co fuses many because Jesus talks to them and says things about them not being able to hear and come to him unless he enables them but he’s talking to the rebellious house of Israel that he made blind and deaf after they broke his covenant worshipping the many many false gods of thier history

But that’s part of Israel’s covenant curse it had nothing to do with anyone else gentiles never had and broke his covenant nor were they made deaf and blind to his word . In general mankind has never been unable to respond to god we just choose the evil sometimes rather than the good all the time

 

[studier]

why don't you just stick to the discussion of Scripture rather than employing your ad hominem tactics.

futility.

 

[Jordon]

have you considered Scripture which tells us man can know good and evil?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil ...

Everyone who has posted in this thread acknowledges that it is God Who reaches out to mankind ... and God reaches out through the Scripture He has given us to read ... through sending faithful believers to speak His Word to us.

When God reaches out to us, mankind has only two responses ...

1) believe the Word; or
2) suppress the truth in unrighteousness (don't believe the Word)

Since God has stated that mankind can know good (Gen 3:22) ... why is there an insistence that mankind cannot comprehend when God reaches out? ... why is there no understanding from some that natural man does comprehend and, at times, natural man believes what he or she is told?

But according to some, the only response available from mankind is rejection.

I believe natural man can believe what God tells them ... I do not believe all reject out of hand ... Abraham is an example ... Rahab is an example ... Naaman is an example ...

There are too many examples in Scripture which indicate that natural man can respond positively to God and this truth is rejected out of hand by some (@Magenta, @Rufus, @BillyBob for sure ... not sure about you).
.

I have yes and for that reason there will be able to respond in some manner,

But is there response going to be right with out the aid God, (some kind of enabling ?.

I can't see it.

But I can see enabling

 

[HeIsHere]

futility.

It really is, for many reasons.

 

[Magenta]

The ability to exercise faith in Christ Jesus because of the inherent power and truth of the Gospel message.

Yes, there you go again butchering that verse. I wonder how many times you have done this already, surely close to a dozen if not more, you are immune to correction, you hate what the verse actually says, since you keep leaving off that the gospel message is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, and you like to pretend that everyone hears when Jesus said otherwise, and you like to pretend that the gospel is not hid when Scripture attests otherwise, and you also like to pretend that unregenerated people can receive and comprehend the spiritual things of God when Scripture proclaims otherwise, you pretend they are not opposed to the spiritual things of God, that they embrace them, when Scripture says otherwise, and you reject that they are hostile in their minds toward God, and hear the gospel message as foolishness, so in your fantasy theology that person chooses to believe the nonsense he hears when the gospel is preached, before his heart is changed, that incurably wicked heart which man cannot change on his own, and with which one believes. In your theology people captive to the will of the devil are free and those under the power and influence of the wicked one choose God. That is decidedly not what Scripture teaches, though.

 

[lrs68]

We are told how to live a life that is pleasing to God. Yet many times we fail, because we are fallen creatures. But, when we are told to choose life rather than death, FWers tell us that [God would not ask us to do something that we are unable to do].
The sad fact is that we ARE UNABLE to do this without being brought to newness of life!
And that, my friend, is a work of God.

You say it's impossible to do but God says to do it as if we are able to do it. If God tells me to do something I choose to believe I can because God does not have a Biblical record of telling people to do something they aren't able to do.

 

[Magenta]

You say it's impossible to do but God says to do it as if we are able to do it. If God tells me to do something I choose
to believe I can because God does not have a Biblical record of telling people to do something they aren't able to do.

Tell me how you circumcised your heart and ears, please.

How much else of what Peter said do you reject?

Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples
a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

You do realize what that means, what it was in regards to?

Romans 11 v 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

 

[Cameron143]

You say it's impossible to do but God says to do it as if we are able to do it. If God tells me to do something I choose to believe I can because God does not have a Biblical record of telling people to do something they aren't able to do.

God actually has a long history of telling people to do things they can't do. That's how He gets the glory. Gideon comes to mind.