Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

You should be used to my ignoring much of what you say. There's not much point to a lot of it.



I disagree with determinism, as you know, and I think it’s important to see where human and divine will are actually addressed. Jesus said, ‘I lay it down of my own accord.’** His will governed His action. If you claim the nails kept Him there, are you saying Roman nails overpowered—wagged—the will of the Son of God?

**Interesting translation and notes (#46 based in BDAG Lexicon):

NET John 10:18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down45 of my own free will.46 I have the authority47 to lay it down, and I have the authority48 to take it back again. This commandment49 I received from my Father."

NET Notes (John 10:18)​

45 tn Or "give it up."​

46 tn Or "of my own accord." "Of my own free will" is given by BDAG 321 s.v. ἐμαυτοῦ c.​

47 tn Or "I have the right."​

48 tn Or "I have the right."​

49 tn Or "order."​

​

All done for now Rufus. We both know this bantering goes nowhere.

So, your action and will post earlier was a big nothingburger. Thanks for playing.

Funny how the phrase "free will" doesn't appear in any of my literal translations -- or for that matter in the NIV or even in any of my paraphrases. The closest any of the translations come is "I lay it down voluntarily" or "I lay it down of my own accord". But that's okay...if anyone on this planet had "free will", it was the First Adam before he sinned and the Last Adam who never sinned. Jesus' heart was as lily white and pure as the driven snow with not a scintilla of darkness in it. Therefore, his will and his nature were always free FROM sin. And that's TRUE freedom! The same kind of freedom all God's people will experience in the eternal New Order.

 

[Rufus]

Kroogz said:


Just for the elect ....Right?

Reformed/ calvies/tulip folks have a pretty small box.

I guess God does, too, then. After all, He made the New Covenant only with Abraham's spiritual descendants. He kinda omitted the world in the distributive sense but included the world in the qualitative sense. So... you may spout your ridiculous about how much God loves each and every person in the world w/o exception, but God's ACTIONS speak much louder than your foolish words and your persistent eisegesis of scripture since He has never made a redemptive covenant with the entire world in the distributive sense.

Learn it, love it and live it!

Heb 2:16
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.
NIV

 

[cv5]

The carefully crafted word salads are very important in the reformed/calvie/tulip world.

Yup. Incoherent, monotonous and misguided if not mendacious.

 

[cv5]

Funny how the phrase "free will" doesn't appear in any of my literal translations

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Interestingly, this term is used only 5 times, and all in 1 Corinthians....

right ... which is why I believe some folks insist that just because the usage in chapter 1 relates to the gospel, then all uses must relate to the gospel.

There is a transition from the gospel (the milk of the Word) to the meat of the Word at 1 Cor 2:6. The milk of the Word is something we should desire our whole lifetime on this earth (1 Pet 2:2) ... but once we have matured past the pablum stage, it is the meat of the Word we need to chew on and digest and put into practice. God gave us His Word so we would grow from spiritual infancy to maturity as we await full adulthood ... which will occur when we see Him at His coming and we are fully conformed to the image of Christ.

Right. And again, the text says only that the natural "receiveth not" the gospel.
A crucial distinction that has been made over and over again.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness G3472 unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I do not believe the gospel is in view in 1 Cor 2:14. There is a transition from the milk of the Word to more weightier matters at 1 Cor 2:6.

Belief in the gospel is the first step and as we feed on the milk of the Word we grow from newborn babe in Christ to more mature believer at which point we are able to feed on more weightier matters. The Word of God will sustain us throughout our whole lifetime on this earth and we must not neglect feeding daily on it ... the Word of God nourishes that new creation God placed within each new born again one ... the new man ... if the new man is kept weak through malnourishment (neglect of God's Word), the old man remains strong ... doesn't matter how long a person has been born again, if he or she is not feeding on the Word of God, he or she will remain in spiritual childhood ... and by feeding on God's Word, I mean not mixing God's Word with doctrines of men.
.

 

[cv5]

right ... which is why I believe some folks insist that just because the usage in chapter 1 relates to the gospel, then all uses must relate to the gospel.

There is a transition from the gospel (the milk of the Word) to the meat of the Word at 1 Cor 2:6. The milk of the Word is something we should desire our whole lifetime on this earth (1 Pet 2:2) ... but once we have matured past the pablum stage, it is the meat of the Word we need to chew on and digest and put into practice. God gave us His Word so we would grow from spiritual infancy to maturity as we await full adulthood ... which will occur when we see Him at His coming and we are fully conformed to the image of Christ.





I do not believe the gospel is in view in 1 Cor 2:14. There is a transition from the milk of the Word to more weightier matters at 1 Cor 2:6.

Belief in the gospel is the first step and as we feed on the milk of the Word we grow from newborn babe in Christ to more mature believer at which point we are able to feed on more weightier matters. The Word of God will sustain us throughout our whole lifetime on this earth and we must not neglect feeding daily on it ... the Word of God nourishes that new creation God placed within each new born again one ... the new man ... if the new man is kept weak through malnourishment (neglect of God's Word), the old man remains strong ... doesn't matter how long a person has been born again, if he or she is not feeding on the Word of God, he or she will remain in spiritual childhood ... and by feeding on God's Word, I mean not mixing God's Word with doctrines of men.
.

I hear you. Definitely a compelling view of these passages.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Gods plans will never fail. There is nothing which can alter their outcome!
Prov 16:9 Prov 19:21 Acts 5:38-39

Are you claiming that His plans somehow depend on our actions?

instead of ripping out one snippet from the post, BillyBob, read the whole ... I'll bold the part you appear to be concerned about:

where did I state that Adam was "the sinless innocent"? Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God told Adam what would be the consequence of eating from the tree (Gen 2:17). Adam knew he would die ... we just don't know if Adam knew the full ramification of what it was to die.​

​

Adam left his Father and joined his wife (Gen 2:24).​

​

Did Adam make the right decision? does it matter at this point in time?​

​

Adam did what he did ... God knew what satan would do in beguiling Eve ... God knew what Eve would do ... God knew what Adam would do ... God is the One Who established His plan of redemption in eternity past ... we are just living through that plan and we either believe what God wrote in Scripture (or Scripture a faithful believer preaches) or we don't ... whatever decision we make determines where we will spend eternity future.​

​

there are only two choices we have when Scripture is presented to us ... believe ... or suppress the truth in unrighteousness.​

​

Deuteronomy 30:19-20a I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days ...​

it was no surprise to God when satan beguiled Eve

it was no surprise to God when Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

it was no surprise to God when Adam ate and became one flesh with his wife

it was no surprise to God when you or I believed

it was and is (nor will it be in the future) no surprise to God when the whosoevers believe

it is no surprise to God when those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness do not believe

... none of this proves that God withholds anything from those who end up in the lake of fire ...
.

 

[Magenta]

So, your action and will post earlier was a big nothingburger. Thanks for playing.

Funny how the phrase "free will" doesn't appear in any of my literal translations

Yep totally made up from top to bottom this whole free will thing.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Theres no doubt the Gospel is an empowering grace, all the revelations of Christ are empowering the whole gospel is an examination of the heart also, it has to be as it holds the power to save.

I feel it's the gospel of Christ that the father examines the heart with, in the time that he for- knows every indivudual, The father sent his son to preach the Gospel of heaven for the power to save, it there for makes complete sense that the father will examine the heart with the whole gospel.

I believe God reaches out to all descendants of Adam throughout the lifetime of each person ... He does not reach out just once or twice, but multiple times throughout the life of a person. And God reaches out through His faithful believing children preaching His Word (it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe – 1 Cor 1:21).

A person either believes or does not believe when God's Word is preached.

There then must come a point when the heart is enabled as written in the bible , at which point I feel it's an irresistible grace, I tell you that no can Come to me unless the father has enabled them John 6.65.

John 6:65 is found in Scripture after Jesus had fed a multitude with five loaves and two fishes. He then left Tiberias and went to Capernaum where He taught in the synagogue (John 6:22-25).

Jesus then stated Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled (John 6:26) ... iow, they ignored the miracle (which pointed to Him as Messiah) ... and settled for feeding their bellies (i.e. disinterested in the spiritual ... interested in the earthly).

The people asked about the manna in the desert. Jesus taught them about the manna from heaven and ended by stating that He was the Bread from Heaven and whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life ... (John 6:51-58). This was taught in the synagogue.

Jesus then taught His disciples after they murmured This is an hard saying; who can hear it? (John 6:60) ... Jesus told them there were some among them who did not believe ...

In John 6:65, Jesus told them for this cause said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father ... for these reasons ... all the reasons He explained to the people beginning in vs 23.

and Scripture tells us in John 6:66 that many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him

Jesus rebuked those who followed Him for material earthly motivations. If people did not seek Him in Spirit and in truth instead of seeking Him for earthly reasons, then they did not come to Him at all, even though they had followed Him from Tiberias to Capernaum.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If we come to Christ in our earthly reasonings we miss the mark. What is our motivation in coming to Him ... are we like those who want their bellies filled? ... or are we like those who seek Him because He has the words of life? God looks on the heart ... His Word discerns between the thoughts and intents of the heart (Heb 4:12).

Have you ever considered the words in Genesis 3 ... that man knows both good and evil (Gen 3:22)? a lot of folks focus only on the evil without giving one single thought to the fact that God tells us mankind knows both good and evil. Why do some only focus on the evil without considering what did God mean that mankind can know good???

 

[Jordon]

You keep trying to explain to me that we don't have a free will. And not having free will would mean that there is total predestination.

Hey, I guess that would make the homo's right too huh? That he was born like that, lol. No. He made choices.

Yep you don't have free will if your saved you've been bought for a price.

Because its his life his soul, that was stolen from him.

Before the fall his life his soul was stolen from him, his life and his soul belonged to him,
,

So it's all about him, The father is God, He has the right to do has he pleases with his life that lives in you.

Fear the the one who can cast the soul to hell or heaven.

As at the end of your life one of those Two things will happen.

No amount of any free will, you think you have will change what is going to happen.

And not one single person in a fallen state can change the outcome by themselves alone by themselves.

There all in need of a saviour, who will is win his life back. Not your life but his life.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Edward, what part of, we are discussing what the Bible says of man, do you not understand?

Magenta, who is the one who does not consider all that "the Bible says of man"? I have asked you several times to consider that man can know good, but you seem to only focus on the evil ... why is that? what harm can possibly come to you if you consider that God has allowed mankind to know good in addition to the evil boogeyman you conjure up?

God said And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is becomeas one of us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22).

Are you disagreeing with the Bible?

I agree with what is written in Scripture ... you have not admitted the truth of Scripture that God said Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22).

you've got evil down pat

have you considered what did God mean that man can know good?

I have not stated that "man is good". I do believe man can know good and evil ... I have asked you specifcally, Magenta ... and I do not believe you have ever responded:

interesting that you will not respond to questions asked concerning what did God mean when He said man can know good ....

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Part of the issue here is defining what "free will" is.

yeah ... they won't define ... or if they do provide some sort of definition, what they claim does not apply to anyone who has posted in this thread.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Some of these "free willers" cannot even acknowledge that faith is a gift. Even when Scripture says all good things come from God.

no one denies what God has provided to mankind ... no one denies that "all good things come from God", Magenta.

They just cannot seem to help themselves open their
eyes to the truth even though they will claim man has everything he needs from birth to see and agree with the truth.

What has been stated ...

when God's Word is preached by faithful believers, mankind either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness ... ​

quite a bit different than what you have added to the statement ... so it appears it is you who "just cannot seem to help [yourself] open your eyes".

They claim the gospel is not hid when Scripture attests otherwise.

another half-truth (read lie) ... what is claimed is that the gospel is not hid by God ... God has revealed the gospel throughout the whole of Scripture ... from Genesis to Revelation ... again, quite a bit different than what you claim.


Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Gal3:26-27.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:26-27 NKJ)

These verses are explaining the prior verse that speaks of the new era of grace in Christ.

We become sons of God through Faith in Christ Jesus. This Faith is articular and thus there is some sense of specificity here. It's obviously Faith or Belief in Jesus Christ, but it can also very easily be making clear that it's "your Faith/Belief in Jesus Christ." IOW, this can be very specifically the action of the believer.

3:26 We know that God moves first, so we include that here. God provides the Gospel of His Son > men believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ > God makes believers His sons.

3:27 is explaining this and elaborating it. The direct inference is Gospel > Faith > Baptized INTO Christ > Put on Christ - God's Sons.

yes ... succinct observation.

But the key IMO is the last clause "have put on Christ."

yes ... why some prefer to be clothed in the works of the flesh (filthy rags) is beyond me ... but that's what we see from some in this thread ... these things ought not so to be.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, you are a FWer, after all!? Can't make up your own mind, can you?

rolleyes ... as I have already explained to you, I am a

believer in the Lord Jesus Christ ... a member in particular placed by God in the body of the Lord Jesus Christ as it has pleased Him ... the one body over which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head.

​

you can slander me all the livelong day, but that does not change what God says about me ... it just reveals that you are a slanderer ... not good, Rufus ...

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
.

 

[Jordon]

yeah ... they won't define ... or if they do provide some sort of definition, what they claim does not apply to anyone who has posted in this thread.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
.

no one can define free will many have tried, well at least not in a biblical sense, only in an Oxford dictionary sense, we should look to the bible not a dictionary as the human free will idea is just one of those ideas that lets the mind run on into the work of imagination, it's a bit of a head shrink , and the reason they can't is because it's a man made up fallacies, made up in it's fallen state inflicted and influenced by the devil.
Along with all the other perverse doctrines out there to may I add.

I thank you for above post to my reply, I'll reply soon I don't have the right frame of mind at the moment, as I feel a bit sick reading all these posts from the devil. Not to mention the religious racism that's being shown here, which is a criminal offence by the way.

After all the lovely things that have been said from God here we see the devil really going to work here.

It's his life friend less we forget
.

Bye for now.

 

[lrs68]

And that manifestation was not by His grace?

And my reasoning is flawed? We can get purity out of what is impure? A bad tree can produce good fruit?

Please give me one biblical example of what you speak, i.e. God manifesting himself to a person.

Also, how does God today in this New Covenant economy manifest himself to his people?

Even with YOUR FLAWED description of Regeneration you have God making the person awakened (you use alive) from the process of Hearing the Gospel preached.

I am saying that the manifesting God does to all humanity individuality when they understand God is God is the awakening. Now at this moment of being awakened is when a person is able to understand they're accepting/rejecting God. Being Awakened allows a Free Will choice being made.

 

[Jordon]

Magenta, who is the one who does not consider all that "the Bible says of man"? I have asked you several times to consider that man can know good, but you seem to only focus on the evil ... why is that? what harm can possibly come to you if you consider that God has allowed mankind to know good in addition to the evil boogeyman you conjure up?













2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

dude I think your generalized summarizing of magenta is woefully wrong,

I'm not sure completely why you maje such an assertion.

But I guess people don't like to hear how evil they can be,

It can be taken personally but you shouldn't let it.

 

[Jordon]

Even with YOUR FLAWED description of Regeneration you have God making the person awakened (you use alive) from the process of Hearing the Gospel preached.

I am saying that the manifesting God does to all humanity individuality when they understand God is God is the awakening. Now at this moment of being awakened is when a person is able to understand they're accepting/rejecting God. Being Awakened allows a Free Will choice being made.

and still no answer to the simple questions I asked you.

But yet here you are outright dismissing again

 

[lrs68]

and still no answer to the simple questions I asked you.

But yet here you are outright dismissing again

From God:

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day: I have put before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so you and your offspring would live


Let's break this down.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day:

What is heaven and earth witnessing you doing that even earth is a witness against you?

Heaven and earth are witnessing your choices because they're done by Free Will.

Now look at this portion of the Verse:

I have put before you life and death, blessing and curse.

These are the options that Free Will evolve around.

Now look at what God wants you to do:

Choose life so you and your offspring would live